Can I get a Freaking Break!!!!!!

[ArmyWarrant]

I must be f@#$ing cursed, doomed to not own a stang without having carnage happen! I was merging onto I-64 downshifted into 3rd and accelerated into traffic, got up to 5k RPM and heard a loud ping and the car start missing and carrying on. I pulled over and pulled off the hood and started the car and heard stuff banging off the drivers side valve cover so I shut it down quickly and waited for a tow truck. I got it home and here is what I found under the drivers valve cover.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/100_3142.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/100_3143.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/100_3144.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/100_3147.jpg


I don't think there is any damage to the valve but I want to make sure that there was no contact between the piston and the valve. Can someone send me a link to the procedures to measure piston to valve clearance. Id appreciate it.

[ArmyWarrant]

Just to add I checked the pushrod and it straight as an arrow. The only thing I can figure happened was the rockers backed off on those two valves. I would think if there was contact with the valve and piston that the pushrod would have bent prior to the rocker stud snapping.

[Rodeheaver's]

why do those rockers say sbc???? have you checked the valvetrain geometry?? thats usually the cause of that, or way to much spring pressure due to a huge cam and no stud girdles.....

[Rodeheaver's]

it is very hard to check ptv clearence with the heads on the car, just about the only way to do that is to put a checker (real light) spring in place of the exhaust and intake spring of the #1 cyl and set up a dial indicator to touch the top of the valve retainer totally parallel (with the rockers off that cyl of coarse), then rotate the engine 15 degrees before and after tdc of #1 cyl, you must check it at 15 before and after TDC... Once you are at 15 degrees in either direction, watch the indicator and push down on the valve and see how far the indicator is moving, you want no less than .100 ptv clearence 15 before and after TDC...

[ArmyWarrant]

I don't know, they were on it when I got it. I just got off the phone with a friend in new york an he is sending me a set of crane full roller rockers 1.6. I have access to dial indicators and everything but I need a degree wheel for this process right? I also checked the pushrod and they are stock length pushrods and I just don't think that is right. I was told when I bought the car that it has a z cam in it so I really don't think stock length pushrods are right for it. correct me if I am wrong.

Does a z cam have enough lift to require stud girdles?

I am gonna try and check the geometry tomorrow and make sure that the tip is riding in the center of the valve stem

[Rodeheaver's]

yes you do need a degree wheel, and the lift didnt break the rocker stud, the stud broke from valve train deflection, that means the stud is moving back and forth till it breaks, i would find it hard to believe that a piston hitting a vlavel would break that stud, it will usually bend a valve or bend a pushrod... And there is no cam that requires stud girdles, there is only big springs required by a big cam that needs stud girdles...and i would think that the correct springs for a z cam would not be that bad, but i would have to look up the number to be sure, and who is to say you have the correct springs???

[ArmyWarrant]

Thanks for all the info Tim, is there a way to find out what springs are on the heads? Also I think I am going to pull the heads to make sure that there was no damage done and then use the clay to check ptv. It looks like its gonna be down for a while then, I want to make sure that everything is right, while I got the heads off I'll be able to verify that it is a Z cam in the motor. Again thanks for all the info

[Rodeheaver's]

the only way to find out what the springs are is to check the preasure on a spring checker..... valve springs usually have no markings.. i guess thats why there are only 2 places in the ENTIRE world that make valve springs.....or so i have been told ..

[SK@StreetLethal]

Sometimes sbc rockers are used on sbf's to get better valve train geometry. Been there done that, the engine or heads don't know that rockers were stamped sbc. It's not so much you want the pattern dead center on the valve but that you want the narrowest pattern you can get.

[ArmyWarrant]

I think my engine shop at work has a spring tester so I think I'll disassemble the one valve and bring it with me to work tomorrow and see if I can figure it out. I really hope that its just a matter of the rockers backing off, I know wishful thinking but I have to lol

[INSANELY CRAZY]

why do those rockers say sbc???? have you checked the valvetrain geometry?? thats usually the cause of that, or way to much spring pressure due to a huge cam and no stud girdles.....

he wanted to go fast so what better way then put chevy parts in the ford motor.....:biglaugh:

[Rodeheaver's]

Sometimes sbc rockers are used on sbf's to get better valve train geometry. Been there done that, the engine or heads don't know that rockers were stamped sbc. It's not so much you want the pattern dead center on the valve but that you want the narrowest pattern you can get.i know i know... i was just jackin his wires..LOL:biglaugh:

[ArmyWarrant]

Well I won't be abel to get access to the spring tester until monday so i am gonna wait until this weekend to tear into the car.

[ArmyWarrant]

Well I couldn't hold off on working on the car so I just took the other rocker of that cylinder and I got another kick while I am down. The pushrod is bent on that valve.

I was wondering if I floated the valves would that cause the damage I have? I moved the valve that had the bent pushrod and it moves freely without binding so I don't think it is bent. Wouldn't the valve be bent also if there was contact with the piston? I am hoping so. I plan on taking the heads off for sure now just have to wait until after the holidays for the garage space in my buddy's garage. I won't have my garage until october or I'd wait til then.

[ArmyWarrant]

How do I determine what spring pressure my valve springs should have for my cam? I was told that the car has a z303 cam in it and I will hopefully verify that this weekend by using my dial indicator that is designed for the lifter hole and finding the lift at the cam lobe. The z303 is supposed to be .345 I & E at the cam and .552 I&E at the valve with 1.6 ratio rockers. I want to make sure I have the right valve springs before I reassemble the engine after tear down. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[ArmyWarrant]

Well I haven't been able to get a trailer to tow the car to the garage yet so I did some work I could at my house today. I checked for coil bind and didn't find any. I also checked how the rocker was riding on the valve stem and think I have some geometry problems, shouldn't the roller tip of the rocker be riding more towards the center of the stem then it is in this pic?

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/102_0059.jpg

[altoona]

It's a little hard to see exactly where it's riding in that picture, but I've always been told that getting the smallest possible contact patch on the valve stem is more important than having it exactly in the center.

You can take a sharpie and make a mark on top the valve stem, then reinstall the rocker and turn the engine a couple revolutions. You'll then have a witness mark that will tell where and how wide your contact area is.

[ArmyWarrant]

Heres a better shot of that rocker

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/102_0062.jpg

[SK@StreetLethal]

Loosen the rocker arm stud and adjust the guide plates over a bit. That should solve that issue.

[ArmyWarrant]

OK, Also I am wondering if the pushrods I have are ok for guideplates? These are the ones I have. It doesn't say anything about being hardened

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SLP%2DRP%2D3241&N=700+115&autoview=sku

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q194/347stangconv/Carnage/102_0066.jpg

[SK@StreetLethal]

Those look like stock replacement pushrods. Looks like there allready showing wear. I would make sure the length is right and order hardened ones.

[ArmyWarrant]

OK I am gonna order a pushrod length checker and get some hardened pushrods.

[altoona]

Ah, not centered side to side, I thought you meant front to back. Disregard my previous post!

From the description it looks like that's a stock non-hardened push rod. I'd call Summit and ask, they could probably tell you.

[ArmyWarrant]

Ah, not centered side to side, I thought you meant front to back. Disregard my previous post!

From the description it looks like that's a stock non-hardened push rod. I'd call Summit and ask, they could probably tell you.

Well no need to disregard your previous post. I just didn't understand what you were saying I guess. I talked to Tim today and he straightened me out on the pushrod length checker. The pushrods that were in the car were 3/8" to short and my valve train geometry was way off. I am willing to bet the roller tip was barely catching the valve stem at full lift. I got it now though, I need to order some 6 5/8" hardened push rods and get the springs checked to make sure they have the proper seat pressure. I also will definitely be pulling the heads now and checking PTV clearance with the new push rods. Hopefully I will see no valve damage and PTV will be good to go.:thumbsup:

Thanks Alot to Tim, you have been a huge help!:woot1::pinkthumb:

[ArmyWarrant]

OK I've redone the valve geometry again with the adjustable push rod and I've found that I can use a pushrod that is 6 3/4" in length measured with a tape measure, I will use a digital caliper tomorrow at work to get exact measurements. I redid the geometry in better light so I could better tell the center of the valve stem and realized the previous measurement was a lil off. I also got my springs checked at my machine shop and they have the following numbers

installed height seat pressure valve open seat pressure valve closed
1.800" 340 130
1.850" 320 115

Are these springs ok for a z cam? Also I am gonna go with these pushrods so I can do it on the cheap so I can get my car running so I can enjoy it a lil this summer. I will be disassembling the motor this winter and reringing and rebearing the whole engine so I will get better pushrods then.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+4294925232+4294924497+42948398 73+4294869102+4294869097+115+4294778917

[Rodeheaver's]

the installed height of 1.800 is pretty good pressure for the z cam but you should check bind height of that spring because i thin kthe z cam is like .544 lift...

[ArmyWarrant]

.552 lift with 1.6 rockers. How do I check bind height? I've rotated the engine to full lift with .040 feelers gauge between the coils of the spring and they had slight drag on the feelers gauge. Is this good or is there something else I need to check.

[Rodeheaver's]

that method is acceptable..

[ArmyWarrant]

OK Thanks Tim I measured with a 6-7 mic today and the actual measurement is 6.765. Would the 6.805 be okay to use? Only .040 difference, don't know if this will be enough to make a diff or not.

[ArmyWarrant]

well I ordered some trick flow 6.75" pushrods from summit today. My DD cavalier looks like it is going to need a head so I gotta get the stang running for the time being. The head alone for the cavalier is gonna be 250 plus the gasket kit is 210. That together is more than I paid for the whole dang car.:wtf:

[Black87GT]

damn bro, youve got my kind of luck :(

good luck with getting both back on the road!!

[ArmyWarrant]

Well got the pushrods and installing them shortly, hopefully the stang will be purring again soon. Just gotta refresh my memory on setting the rockers. How can I pump the lifters up with oil without turning the car over and running it?

[ArmyWarrant]

IT IS ALIVE!!!!!!!! Put the new pushrods in used a oil pump priming tool to pump the lifters up and it fired right up after get the fuel system primed after sitting for 3 months. I have a couple rockers I need to redo but other than that it should be mobile again tomorrow:pepper::woot1::biglaugh::highfive:

[INSANELY CRAZY]

nice, glad to hear everythings finally working out for ya.

[ArmyWarrant]

Been driving it for a couple days now and its running ok. I need to make some adjustments to the timing and might be having issues with the msd pro billet dizzy not advancing like its supposed to. It was originally locked out but I reinstalled an advance kit and have the lightest springs and I believe they are the 20* of advance bushings in it but I am not seeing the advance happening. When should the timing advance, at what RPM?

[ArmyWarrant]

I checked the rockers tonight and found what I think are serious wear marks on the push rods. It seems they are making contact with the rockers at full lift. They are hitting on the back side of the rockers. I have absolutely no freaking luck! I think its punishment for making the jump from Chevy to Ford. I had a 1982 monte carlo prior to my first stang and decided to get the stang when I couldn't pass up the deal. I've always wanted to fox body and now they are giving me nothing but headaches. GRRRRRRRRRR:hissyfit::madashell:

[INSANELY CRAZY]

I checked the rockers tonight and found what I think are serious wear marks on the push rods. It seems they are making contact with the rockers at full lift. They are hitting on the back side of the rockers. I have absolutely no freaking luck! I think its punishment for making the jump from Chevy to Ford. I had a 1982 monte carlo prior to my first stang and decided to get the stang when I couldn't pass up the deal. I've always wanted to fox body and now they are giving me nothing but headaches. GRRRRRRRRRR:hissyfit::madashell:

as long as you own one thats all your gonna have... go back to chevy!!!

you'll be so much happier:goodidea:

[ArmyWarrant]

LOL, if I could at this point I might. Just don't have the funds to do it. I like the car but I mean it seems everytime I get a car I inherit someone else's problems. I am thinking I will sell the shortblock and then park it behind my house until I can finish up the engine bay clean up and find a 351 for it.

[INSANELY CRAZY]

yea, that usually is the issue when as you said "i couldnt pass up the deal" cheap car usually means something wrong with it and past owner doesnt wanna mess with it.

i almost got chris (fknfst) changed back over to chevy, workin on it,lol...

[ArmyWarrant]

yea, that usually is the issue when as you said "i couldnt pass up the deal" cheap car usually means something wrong with it and past owner doesnt wanna mess with it.

i almost got chris (fknfst) changed back over to chevy, workin on it,lol...

Well the thing is with the changeover the car I got was my first one. I knew this one wasn't perfect but ever since I got it I have found out that the PO had it assembled by some shadetree mechanic and nothing was done right. So I wouldn't doubt if the dizzy or the MSD box are screwed. It would just be icing on the cake. I can't really complain to much I only have about 1400 in this one right now, the first one I had over 9500 in and it went to shit due to some shi@#ty procomp alum heads and a faulty camshaft. I am gonna try getting a regular vacuum advance dizzy and taking the rockers off and clearancing them for the pushrods. I just need info on how to run a non efi dizzy in a car that was originally EFI and doesn't have the harness that had the wires for the EFI dizzy anymore. Got any ideas?

[INSANELY CRAZY]

not really ontop of carb stuff, but tim rodehaver might be able to answer that,send him a pm.. he's built a few carb'd motors in his time.

[ArmyWarrant]

Well I think I just got a decent break. A friend of the family back home in PA has an 88 stang sitting in his yard with what he says a 351 in it. He told my bro $100 and come get it. My bro is going to check it out tomorrow an let me know if it is in fact a 351. If so SCORE!!!! Even if it isn't a roller block can't complain for the price. My bro will probably pay for it cause he wants a parts car for his 86 I sold him.

Hopefully I will have a 351 to put in the car. If this goes through I will be pulling the current engine and doing a complete engine bay clean up and filling in all the unnecessary holes with my mig welder and relocating all wires to inner fenders.:goodidea:

[ArmyWarrant]

Well the car ended up having a 302 in it not a 351. I did find a 351 roller short block from the guy I bought the engine off of for my daily driver. He wants 200 for it and I verified the numbers on the block. Looks like I should have it around the 15th. Then its just a matter of waiting for the holidays to pass to be able to get the engine to the machine shop and have it hot tanked, honed and new cam bearings and freeze plugs. Gonna be looking for a 351W carb intake in the near future.