Trick Flow TW heads Vs AFR's???

[John4cam]

Alright, looking through the gt 40 heads thread I figured this would become a decent conversation and not clutter it up with off topic talk, So??

Which do you like and why?

[George]

neitheer. brodix!

[cam303]

I think everyone should run the gt-40's:goodidea:

[HidalgoGT]

High ports more bang for the buck.

[Martin0660]

Esslinger ARCA head :D

[George]

Esslinger ARCA head :D

sounds like some honda 4 pot head

[cam303]

High ports more bang for the buck.

You know it! I know of a 438 c.i. with 225 high ports making over 600 RWHP on 87 pump gas. It is a carbed road race car.

[HidalgoGT]

You know it! I know of a 438 c.i. with 225 high ports making over 600 RWHP on 87 pump gas. It is a carbed road race car.
Pretty much what i am going with and supposed to put out like numbers maybe a lil more :thmbsup:

[cam303]

Pretty much what i am going with and supposed to put out like numbers maybe a lil more :thmbsup:

Should be one hell of a runner!

[TJH64]

I'm partial to the Canfields myself; 20*, 195 head with .400" raised exhaust ports, 2.06" intake valve, 1.60" exhaust. These things make great power, but fly under the radar, as they do not have the marketing that AFR or Trickflow has.

[yeahloh95]

how bout patriots?

[John4cam]

I think everyone should run the gt-40's:goodidea:

Always a smartass...:sticktonge:

[scottyko88]

I have the street heat kit from trick flow. I like it but I'm never happy with the horsepower in my car.

[349Stroker]

both good heads.I've been a trick flow man for years but bought a set of AFR 205's for this 347 and they seem to work great

All depends also in what you are building.If you are gonna get crazy and build a 400+ cube motor I would get ported high ports.OTS shelf high ports aren't very good but you port them and there isn't much that will beat them

I think that if you are looking at a twisted wedge head OTS or a AFR 185 I'd go 185

[Balaska347]

Like someone said above it depends what you are building because bigger isn't always better. If you are comparing Trick flow and AFR, you have to compare the twisted wedge that are CNC and the AFR 205's. I think they are so close it probably doesn't matter. I have a OTS twisted wedge non CNC just casted because they didn't have the CNC option yet and the car runs 11 teens on the motor. You could probably say that im happy with them. I would take either one CNC over a casted head any day.

[Pure Stock]

:deadhorse:

[wick]

If you like replacing valve guides, go with AFR, if not, get TW's.

[turbo83coupe]

Esslinger ARCA head :D


SECOND THAT!! ha

[Inkdcountryboy]

Stock heads FTW!

[John4cam]

Stock heads FTW!

You're gonna rip mikes rollers from the ground on dyno day.:goodidea:

[Inkdcountryboy]

You're gonna rip mikes rollers from the ground on dyno day.:goodidea:


i hope not.. lol i dunno if ill even make it or not so many choices of things to do that day:rotflol:

[Killercanary]

Talk about beating a dead horse... This topic has HOURS worth of reading on other sites with as more information than you could possibly hope to absorb. Both have their strong points and weak points. They are two totally different designs and should be looked at as such.



If you like replacing valve guides, go with AFR, if not, get TW's.

You can't be serious unless you flipped the brands around by accident. TW almost went under because of their valve guide issues. I've been running AFR's on my '95 since 2000. I've floated and bent valves (due to my own fault, not the head or spring package), etc. and the guides are still perfect. In the '90's countless guys dropped valves from the TW heads and took out their bottom ends. This was a real and serious problem which they claim is resolved. Getting the valvetrain geometry perfect in any setup is crucial, but its even more so with a TW head.


As for why there are weight penalties given to TF heads as mentioned in the other thread its all due to the fact that they are not an inline head, and I'm fairly sure these penalties are only in classes where porting is allowed. Their valve design has benefits over an inline design and in the hands of the correct porter and with the right work they will have an edge on an inline valve designed head like an AFR.


I look at it this way, box stock for box stock, AFR has a better offering on many levels. If you want to spend hundreds if not $1000+ into porting then the TF can have the advantage IF the porter knows what they are doing and this is due to the valve location, not TF in general. Most of us are not willing to spend the money that a TRUE and SKILLED head porter requires to have the TF head done up correctly. I'm not talking about pure flow numbers here either before someone starts rattling off what someone claims they can get out of their ported TF's. I'm talking the entire package, valve train and all. IMO AFR still has the one of the best bang for the buck cylinder heads out there for what you get out of the box.

I went 12.03 at 112mph in my heavy SN95 'vert with AFR 165's, a FTI cam, and an edelbrock performer intake. I then made 380rwhp with this exact same combo with the only changes being a bump in displacement to 331 (8.89:1 compression ratio too), and a switch to a holley systemax II intake and 75mm fox style TB. I then swapped out my AFR 165's for a set of AFR 185's along with adding long tubes, a 3" into 2.5" X pipe, and I had the lower intake ported to equal out the runner flow and I ran a 11.50 at 121mph, again in my Sn95 'vert. My car is as docile as they come. There is absolutely no herky-jerky going on at any RPM. I can lug it around in 5th gear at 1000rpms, lay into it and it just goes. Its doesn't buck, pop, etc. which is partially due to the incredible exhaust scavenging offered by AFR's exhaust design. I'm still running the mild FTI cam that was designed for my stock shortblock combo too with this new 331 combo. I don't feel I would have had these same results with another cylinder head.

YouTube- Killercanary's best passes at the 2008 SSOTN Fall Nationals

In the end it all comes down to what the application is, but for a street/strip setup I find the offerings from AFR to be the best out there, especially with their new valve train setups that come stock in their heads. If I was running an 8 second heads up car, I don't know what I'd choose, but most of us are not in this crowd. Do your own research and make your own decision, but when you compare EVERYTHING that you get from an AFR right out of the box, I don't see how you can beat them.

[George]

Talk about beating a dead horse... This topic has HOURS worth of reading on other sites with as more information than you could possibly hope to absorb. Both have their strong points and weak points. They are two totally different designs and should be looked at as such.




You can't be serious unless you flipped the brands around by accident. TW almost went under because of their valve guide issues. I've been running AFR's on my '95 since 2000. I've floated and bent valves (due to my own fault, not the head or spring package), etc. and the guides are still perfect. In the '90's countless guys dropped valves from the TW heads and took out their bottom ends. This was a real and serious problem which they claim is resolved. Getting the valvetrain geometry perfect in any setup is crucial, but its even more so with a TW head.


As for why there are weight penalties given to TF heads as mentioned in the other thread its all due to the fact that they are not an inline head, and I'm fairly sure these penalties are only in classes where porting is allowed. Their valve design has benefits over an inline design and in the hands of the correct porter and with the right work they will have an edge on an inline valve designed head like an AFR.


I look at it this way, box stock for box stock, AFR has a better offering on many levels. If you want to spend hundreds if not $1000+ into porting then the TF can have the advantage IF the porter knows what they are doing and this is due to the valve location, not TF in general. Most of us are not willing to spend the money that a TRUE and SKILLED head porter requires to have the TF head done up correctly. I'm not talking about pure flow numbers here either before someone starts rattling off what someone claims they can get out of their ported TF's. I'm talking the entire package, valve train and all. IMO AFR still has the one of the best bang for the buck cylinder heads out there for what you get out of the box.

I went 12.03 at 112mph in my heavy SN95 'vert with AFR 165's, a FTI cam, and an edelbrock performer intake. I then made 380rwhp with this exact same combo with the only changes being a bump in displacement to 331 (8.89:1 compression ratio too), and a switch to a holley systemax II intake and 75mm fox style TB. I then swapped out my AFR 165's for a set of AFR 185's along with adding long tubes, a 3" into 2.5" X pipe, and I had the lower intake ported to equal out the runner flow and I ran a 11.50 at 121mph, again in my Sn95 'vert. My car is as docile as they come. There is absolutely no herky-jerky going on at any RPM. I can lug it around in 5th gear at 1000rpms, lay into it and it just goes. Its doesn't buck, pop, etc. which is partially due to the incredible exhaust scavenging offered by AFR's exhaust design. I'm still running the mild FTI cam that was designed for my stock shortblock combo too with this new 331 combo. I don't feel I would have had these same results with another cylinder head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_7G9YXU1ag

In the end it all comes down to what the application is, but for a street/strip setup I find the offerings from AFR to be the best out there, especially with their new valve train setups that come stock in their heads. If I was running an 8 second heads up car, I don't know what I'd choose, but most of us are not in this crowd. Do your own research and make your own decision, but when you compare EVERYTHING that you get from an AFR right out of the box, I don't see how you can beat them.

YouTube- Killercanary's best passes at the 2008 SSOTN Fall Nationals

How's that red fox body in the rite lane run? the one one you were racing when you got a 11.50 e.t. Sounds like he is spraying NAWS to it. I am a big fan of fox bodies.

[gmkillr]

I voted Trick Flow Specialities for these reasons:

1. Great out of the box head that's relatively cheap.
2. Easily upgraded for future use if you decide to add more power.
3. Overall great company with years and years of research and development.

I purchased a set of box stock TFS heads and sent them to TEA (Total Engine Airflow) for a total upgrade.
I got:

1. full cnc 205 porting program
2. New upgraded valves
3. New spring package
3. Valve job
4. Hand blend
5. All surfaces re-surfaced to ensure straightness
6. Complete disassemble and re-assemble and setup of complete valvetrain

I received all of this for $1100!:goodidea:
You can purchase these same cnc 205 heads through summit for around $1899. But I already had the heads and wanted to upgrade them.
Here's the pics of my heads after I received them back from TEA:


http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture797.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture798.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture799.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture800.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture801.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture803.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture804.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture805.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture806.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/gmkillr/Picture808.jpg

And the flow #'s are.....................
TrickFlow Twisted Wedge CNC 205 by TEA via C.I.
CCFM
Lift Intake Exhaust
.100 68.7 56.2
.200 141.6 107.8
.300 219.8 157.6
.400 270.2 197.2
.500 302.0 219.4
.550 310.5 228.6
.600 316.2 235.6

Just the standard TFS heads will work great on a 12 sec. daily driver or a 10 sec. street strip car.
The standard TFS heads go for $1199 at Summit and can be upgraded down the road without buying a new head. You can do as I did and ship them to TEA and have them run their CNC program on them to really open them up.

This is where the downfall is with the AFR heads as they don't allow for much additional porting. The only real upgrade you can do to them is a valve job. One could say that AFR heda pretty much come in "maxed out form".

If you look you will find countless 7,8,9 sec. TFS headed cars.
See how many AFR headed cars you can find that run 7,8,9 sec. 1/4 mile times........

The proof is in the pudding! Do some research and the decision will make itself for you as long as you don't fall for marketing hype.

Good luck with your project!

[Killercanary]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_7G9YXU1ag

How's that red fox body in the rite lane run? the one one you were racing when you got a 11.50 e.t. Sounds like he is spraying NAWS to it. I am a big fan of fox bodies.

Not to get off topic but that is Pure Stock's car from here. Its very impressive for what he has. He's an increadible driver as well. He and I both did a bit of a butt pucker on that run as he got a little loose at the 1/8th mile mark as you saw in my video above. Here's his runs from that day at the track:

YouTube- Pure Stock best track times for 2008

[349Stroker]

Paul what does your car weigh?

11.50@121 is amazing

that place must really be fast to go 121 and run 11.50

[Killercanary]

Paul what does your car weigh?

11.50@121 is amazing

that place must really be fast to go 121 and run 11.50

It tipped the scales at just over 3400lbs with me in it with the way I ran it that day. I knew the car felt WAY stronger after I put the AFR 185's on it, and after my first pass I knew the butt-o-meter was right. LOL! My datalog's showed the car was almost a second faster up the hill that I always datalog on after I swapped in the comp heads during a full pull in 3rd gear from ~2000rpms to the limiter, that is a HUGE difference and one that I hoped would show up at the track. I shifted the car at 6300-6400 and crossed the traps right around there too.

There is another track rental coming up on April 25th. I plan on taking my Cobra there to see what it'll run. You should come down! Its a very well prepped track with a lot of great people.

[Killercanary]

BTW Rob, those heads look great!

[gmkillr]

BTW Rob, those heads look great!


Thanks buddy!:highfive:

[wick]

I am just saying that comment based on visual experience. I know a few people that have AFR's and the guides are shot. Low mileage too. I agree Trick Flow had a guide issue. That was resolved in '99 when they went to the bronze guides. Now, there could be some valve train geometry issues. When given the chance I will check them out to be sure. But I still have faith in the TW's. One reason is its the only head you can run a 2.02 valve with atleast a .512 and 220* duration without notching pistons.

[Killercanary]

I am just saying that comment based on visual experience. I know a few people that have AFR's and the guides are shot. Low mileage too. I agree Trick Flow had a guide issue. That was resolved in '99 when they went to the bronze guides. Now, there could be some valve train geometry issues. When given the chance I will check them out to be sure. But I still have faith in the TW's. One reason is its the only head you can run a 2.02 valve with at least a .512 and 220* duration without notching pistons.

Thanks for the clarification Wick. 99% of the time any valve guide wear is due to the geometry being off, and I do know from personal experience that AFR's don't typically use stock length pushrods. I needed 6.300" with my 165's with pedestal mount rockers and a 6.250" with my 185's with shaft mount rockers to get the geometry correct. While these are fairly close to stock length (6.272), if I hadn't been diligent in checking them to ensure that I needed a different size I probably would have had an issue. Unfortunately a lot of people would have though the stockers were close enough and threw it together with the wrong length rods and ended up with guide problems.

As for TW being the only head that can run a 2.02" valve with those cam events, I may have to disagree. I'll try to find my dad's original cam card that cam with his holley systemax II kit, but the holley heads that come in their systemax II kit have a 2.02" valve and they work with stock shortblocks due to how high in the combustion chamber the valve sits. I am not sure though if the original cam specs are smaller than those you posted above though so in that regard you may be correct. I feel like it was a bit on the wild side though. I'll try to find out today.

[wick]

Isn't the systemax a 1.94 valve?

[Killercanary]

Isn't the systemax a 1.94 valve?

No, at least not the ones that came with the systemax II kit when my dad bought it. They had 2 different heads at one time if I remember correctly, one may have had a 1.94" valve.

[How Much?]

YATES HEADS CUZ!!!! haha, if ya know what im talking about you will get a kick outta that!!!:rofl::rofl:

[George]

Not to get off topic but that is Pure Stock's car from here. Its very impressive for what he has. He's an increadible driver as well. He and I both did a bit of a butt pucker on that run as he got a little loose at the 1/8th mile mark as you saw in my video above. Here's his runs from that day at the track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k2SCvFZuC8

I'll bet there is some hidden NAWZ in that car. He says there is some trick flows cylinder heads on the motor. To run like that takes some big power. their are 347 stroker motors that run 10 with nitrous. What do you know about this pure stock fellas motor set up?

[HidalgoGT]

I'll bet there is some hidden NAWZ in that car. He says there is some trick flows cylinder heads on the motor. To run like that takes some big power. their are 347 stroker motors that run 10 with nitrous. What do you know about this pure stock fellas motor set up?
That word annoys the hell out of me :rolleyes:

[John4cam]

I'll bet there is some hidden NAWZ in that car. He says there is some trick flows cylinder heads on the motor. To run like that takes some big power. their are 347 stroker motors that run 10 with nitrous. What do you know about this pure stock fellas motor set up?


weight reduction

[George]

wait reduction cant take that much time off of e.t. since this thread is about afr vs trick flow. i wanna see a afr 302 going into the 10 sec e.t times. now whether or not he has a NAWZ system hidden, i don't know. Maybe someone on here knows.

[John4cam]

wait reduction cant take that much time off of e.t. since this thread is about afr vs trick flow. i wanna see a afr 302 going into the 10 sec e.t times. now whether or not he has a NAWZ system hidden, i don't know. Maybe someone on here knows.

I know wait reduction won't but weight reduction WILL.:goodidea:

[yeahloh95]

don't worry yourself with that red car , it runs 10s thats all you need to know with no nawz or how ever you spell it.

[cam303]

No NAWZ!!!

Maybe just a little pimp juice! Lol

[Killercanary]

wait reduction cant take that much time off of e.t. since this thread is about afr vs trick flow. i wanna see a afr 302 going into the 10 sec e.t times. now whether or not he has a NAWZ system hidden, i don't know. Maybe someone on here knows.

There is a simple explanation why the cars runs 10's... its a purpose built car. That car car is setup to go down the 1320 as quick and as efficiently as possible, period. There is no nitrous on the car. Many on here know Joe and can attest to what this car has and what it runs. I've witnessed it myself enough times personally to know what it runs and how it does this. Why are people so quick to call BS when they don't even know anything about it? I know the details on the car, but I'll leave it to Joe to tell you if he wants. I will tell you though not to expect a full rundown on the car as you won't get it, and I don't blame Joe at all for not disclosing every aspect about the car. It was his time, energy, research, commitment and money that enabled the car to run as stellar as it does and frankly he doesn't owe it to anyone to share that with them. A lot of people get sour over this fact, but I understand his prospective completely.

As for an NA 10 second stock shortblock AFR headed combo... I know of none. That's not to say it can't be done, but very few will go through the steps that Joe has in order to accomplish it. HP wise there are guys making close to the same RWHP numbers Joe does with AFR's, but none has as purpose built of a car as Joe does.