Engine Question [Archive] - Steel City Muscle Cars

RUSH2112

01-17-2007, 12:46 PM

Viper_ed

01-17-2007, 12:59 PM

IMO, a 4 bolt main upgrade on a late model 302 block makes no sense. You will split the lifter valley before you will have a main cap issue.

RUSH2112

01-17-2007, 01:09 PM

So I want/need a block without main caps?

Viper_ed

01-17-2007, 02:02 PM

So I want/need a block without main caps?

:rollingfloorrlol: No you need one with main caps, but the 2 bolt mains that the block already has are all you'll need.

RUSH2112

01-17-2007, 02:16 PM

I don't even know why I bother asking for help on this site. Seems like somebody always has to make light about someone's inexperience. It's just not worth it. Not only did you manage to embarrass me, but you didn't answer my question and if you did, then I still don't understand becuase I don't understand the terminology.

fast4ord

01-17-2007, 03:03 PM

I agree with you on this site, sometimes i think about giving up on it. Anyway, what i know about 4 bolt mains, the block would be totally different than a stock 5.0 block. This would make it more money, would deffinitely be stronger, but it depends on how strong you need? Alot of people run stock blocks with alot of boltons, blowers, turbos and they hold up. You could put a stock block together with a main support and that would probably be good enough. You could go even stronger with aftermarket block like Dart etc., but this would be alot more expensive. Depending on what your doing with the engine would depend if you NEED this or not. Hope this helps some.

Stangman701

01-17-2007, 03:17 PM

The main caps are what actually hold the crank in place. They usually have two bolts, one on either side of the crank that bolt into the block. I think this guy is saying that he could modify a stock block to accept 4 bolt mains which would use two bolts on either side of the crank to hold the cap in place. This might be slightly stronger, but like Ed mentioned above the newer 5.0 blocks have weaknesses in other areas that would make that mod pretty much useless. If you're staying naturally aspirated I'd say the stock 5.0 block will take all you can throw at it as long as it's put together right.

RUSH2112

01-17-2007, 03:27 PM

Finally. 2 posts that are well written and ones that I can understand. Thanks for your replies. I really appreciate the explanations without the 2nd grade comments.

All I am going to do is get the parts I need to complete this block and have it stroked out. It will be strictly N/A.

madmaxin22

01-17-2007, 03:47 PM

I would stop all communications with that guy if thats as clearly as he can express himself on the keyboard.... get a 2 bolt, you'll be fine

RUSH2112

01-17-2007, 03:55 PM

I would stop all communications with that guy if thats as clearly as he can express himself on the keyboard.... get a 2 bolt, you'll be fine

+1 Thanks for the advice.

Steve-0

01-17-2007, 04:04 PM

:readrules: :deadhorse: calm down here children. Get the 2 bolt block, its all you need staying N/A.:yes:

Sonic03snake

01-17-2007, 04:10 PM

Ok guys, I cleaned this thread up. Keep it on topic and be nice!!!!:goodidea:

04yellowcobra

01-17-2007, 05:10 PM

Another vote for staying 2 bolt.

Why not just yank the motor you have in there now and send it off to the machine shop? Instead of spending the money on another block.

Also do you have tranny upgrades in mind? The factory tranny is only rated for 300 ft. lbs. and a 347/afr 185 combo better make well over 350 ft. lbs. at the tire, 400+ at the crank.

Later

Pure Stock

01-17-2007, 05:37 PM

I have an opportunity to buy and engine block and this is what the guy is selling (apparently has a few blocks). Can someone please explain what this means? Sorry for being ignorant.

What I want to do with the block is have it cleaned, honed, and bored .30 over for a 331 or 347 stroker kit to be installed along with AFR185 heads, new cam, rockers, and basically everything new.

Do you want one with or without main caps? If you do a four bolt main conversion like I did you won't need them. Holds the crank together better without the extra weight underneath the crank like the main girdles.

If a 4 bolt main upgrade would be worth the money. I have one with mains.

A few questions for you.
1. Is this a late model roller block you speak of that this gentleman is selling?
2. What is the max rpm the engine will see?

IMO I would use the 2 bolt mains. Just like the factory assembled a late model roller block. Try to employ lighter parts in the rotating/reciprocating assembly (crank,rods,pistons). Tie the mains together with a main girdle. Not sure if you have ever heard of a lifter valley girdle?? Again, IMO, the intake ties the two cylinder banks together, so that is a lifter valley girdle in essence. Do the 347 c.i.d. Do not believe the hype on the rod ratio 347 vs.332 debate over on the corral.

As stated above. Intended rpm ceiling and a thousand other variables will dictate longevity. Keep it under 6.500 rpm and have a blast!!

mlowry1260

01-17-2007, 07:48 PM

I can echo what Pure Stock said, go with a 347, 2-bolt main roller block. There isn't enough meat in the the main webbing of the stock block to make 4-bolt conversion would the time & money. Keep the RPM under 6250 with a stock computer & have some fun. The difference in torque with this setup will amaze you.

I don't buy the argument about the weight below on a girdle. That sounds like corral.net myth to me. I'm not 100% sold on girdles either. They have to be setup properly and only seem to hold things in the block upon a catastrophic failure.

coralcoupe1993

01-17-2007, 11:34 PM

Did I miss something? I guess things got ugly? I would pick up Ford Small Block book and check things out. Go to a book store there are a few that will explain different blocks, heads, and how stuff works. Sounds silly but if you do the research your self, it will be easier to understand and build your self. Luckily my Dad had me tearing apart Ford Big Blocks and Y-Blocks when I was 12. With that and the books I have, I still have a ton to learn (unless it is a 332/352/360/406/410/390/428/427 FE :rolleyes: )

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 12:53 PM

Thanks for your answers guys. Here are a couple of respsonses:

"Why not just yank the motor you have in there now and send it off to the machine shop? Instead of spending the money on another block."

The reason for buying another block is becuase I want to continue to limp along with my current engine for another year while the stroker motor is being built. When it is done, then all I have to do is have my current motor pulled and the new stroker motor put in.

"A few questions for you.
1. Is this a late model roller block you speak of that this gentleman is selling?
2. What is the max rpm the engine will see?"

1. I assume it is a late model roller block, but I can't be sure. I will ask though.

2. I have never had the RPM over 5500 (yellow line). I typically will shift as it approaches the beginning of redline which is 6000RPM, i believe.

"Also do you have tranny upgrades in mind? The factory tranny is only rated for 300 ft. lbs. and a 347/afr 185 combo better make well over 350 ft. lbs. at the tire, 400+ at the crank."

At this time, I was going to continue to use the stock tranny and hope that it would hold up for another year. After the stroker motor is built and in, I will start to save for a bigger tranny (looking for a 6spd). Can I survive with the stock tranny if I 'baby' it?

"Did I miss something? I guess things got ugly?"

Yes, some people just don't play very nice.

"I would pick up Ford Small Block book and check things out. Go to a book store there are a few that will explain different blocks, heads, and how stuff works. Sounds silly but if you do the research your self, it will be easier to understand and build your self. "

I already have about 3-4 books and undersand how engines work and go together, I have just never put one together. While I don't think it would be too hard to learn, I am a little leary of things like clearances and such that are crucial in order for the engine to perform properly. Who knows, maybe I'll get better. I certainly have plenty of time to learn.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 01:15 PM

Anyone wanna try to estimate how much this stroker motor will put out HP wise when it is done?

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 01:27 PM

At this time, I was going to continue to use the stock tranny and hope that it would hold up for another year. After the stroker motor is built and in, I will start to save for a bigger tranny (looking for a 6spd). Can I survive with the stock tranny if I 'baby' it?

The stock T-5 does have it's limitations. On the other hand, I've seen one, a T-5 never opened once for a rebuild (circa 1993) that performed flawlessly behind a multitude of combinations. A true slick was never used with it though, until the past few seasons. Softer launches, a clutch that disengages fully, along with a light race weight no doubt contribute to the longevity. A quality aftermarket shifter with positive stops will help alleviate bent/broken shift fork.

Keeping the proper fluid in a T-5 along with a clutch that has been properly adjusted will help extend the life of the trans.

By the way in supercharged form this T-5 I speak of absorbed roughly 425 RWHP and the torque probably paralleled or exceeded the RWHP number in the fact that this application was forced induction.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 01:39 PM

At this time, I was going to continue to use the stock tranny and hope that it would hold up for another year. After the stroker motor is built and in, I will start to save for a bigger tranny (looking for a 6spd). Can I survive with the stock tranny if I 'baby' it?

The stock T-5 does have it's limitations. On the other hand, I've seen one, a T-5 never opened once for a rebuild (circa 1993) that performed flawlessly behind a multitude of combinations. A true slick was never used with it though, until the past few seasons. Softer launches, a clutch that disengages fully, along with a light race weight no doubt contribute to the longevity. A quality aftermarket shifter with positive stops will help alleviate bent/broken shift fork.

Keeping the proper fluid in a T-5 along with a clutch that has been properly adjusted will help extend the life of the trans.

By the way in supercharged form this T-5 I speak of absorbed roughly 425 RWHP and the torque definitely exceeded the RWHP number in the fact that this application was forced induction.

Thanks for the reply. I do not race my car and it will never see the track, so aside from the occasional torque on the tranny from power shifting, it is strictly a street car.

coralcoupe1993

01-18-2007, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the reply. I do not race my car and it will never see the track, so aside from the occasional torque on the tranny from power shifting, it is strictly a street car.

If you arent racing or going to the track, just buy a fresh crate from summit.

04yellowcobra

01-18-2007, 02:19 PM

Rush,

Your tranny should be fine!

If the motor you are putting together doesn't make 350 rear wheel I would be pretty upset.

Later

madmaxin22

01-18-2007, 02:27 PM

102K ON my stock t-5,,, thats seen a blower for about 3k that was around 400hp at the motor and the current setup now that is around 340 at the motor and it still shifts perfect, no grinds, etc and thats w/ drag radials and a very rare trip to the track

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 02:40 PM

If you arent racing or going to the track, just buy a fresh crate from summit.

Thought about a crate motor but I think they are more expensive than to just build. Besides ,I dont have $5,000 right now. I will build this engine over the next year as funds become available.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 02:41 PM

Rush,

Your tranny should be fine!

If the motor you are putting together doesn't make 350 rear wheel I would be pretty upset.

Later

Only 350? I was hoping to at least push 400

Viper_ed

01-18-2007, 03:13 PM

Only 350? I was hoping to at least push 400

You might at the crank, but not at the tires!

coralcoupe1993

01-18-2007, 03:19 PM

Here ya go. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FMS%2DM%2D6007%2DXB3M&N=700+4294908331+115&autoview=sku

I wouldnt buy a crate but here ya go.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 03:20 PM

Here ya go. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=FMS%2DM%2D6007%2DXB3M&N=700+4294908331+115&autoview=sku

I wouldnt buy a crate but here ya go.

Thanks. I did look at that crate motor awhile back. You think I would not get as much for $4000 if I built a stroker myself?

coralcoupe1993

01-18-2007, 03:28 PM

Thanks. I did look at that crate motor awhile back. You think I would not get as much for $4000 if I built a stroker myself?

You wont get the experience of learning how to do it......not worth the crate! Truthfully, after you get heads, good roller rockers, good rotating assembly, machine work I think you will be around the same price.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 03:36 PM

You wont get the experience of learning how to do it......not worth the crate! Truthfully, after you get heads, good roller rockers, good rotating assembly, machine work I think you will be around the same price.

I think your right. I price out all the parts and aside from the machine work, it is $3000 for a stroker build.

But the $4000 crate motor doesnt include the TB or the induction.

So $4000+ for a crate motor that puts out 345hp (which is probably crank)
or $3000+ for a 347 stroker motor that puts out 350RWHP, plus I get the satsfaction of seeing/helping to build the motor. :pinkthumb:

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 03:42 PM

Only 350? I was hoping to at least push 400

What will you choose for the cam, intake, T.B., and exhaust to compliment the AFR 185's?

madmaxin22

01-18-2007, 03:46 PM

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 03:51 PM

What will you choose for the cam, intake, T.B., and exhaust to compliment the AFR 185's?

Well I'll list what I want to get and you tell me what you think. Also, If I have the heads ported a little bit, would that help?

Exhaust - will reuse current setup. BBK longtube ceramics, O/R h-pipe, flowmaster catback

Cam - not sure yet. might go with the XE266 something or other, or possibly a custom grind. I want to have a heavy lope with an aggresive idle

Rockers - 1.71 roller rockers

Intake - probably not the best choice, but a polished ford racing 'cobra' intake (possibly with a port job). I know their are much better intakes out their, but I want to slowly chrome out the engine.

TB - not really sure about a model, but at least 65mm or higher. Also want to get a 70mm or higher MAF calibrated w/ 30lb injectors

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 03:58 PM

it would take one hell of a combo to get near 400rwhp out of a 347....those are 351 stoked #'s.... bad88ttop has a bad 347 setup w/ a systemax intake and fox lake ported TW heads... i'd shoot for 350 at the wheels and you will be happy with the results esp. for a street car

460FWHP/347c.i.d.=1.325 FWHP per c.i.d. 460FWHP/15% loss through a T-5 (estimated loss) = 400RWHP.

1.325 FWHP per c.i.d. is an "achievable" value for a "street engine". With a well thought out "combo" (I'm not getting into a pissing match over cylinder head choices here) the 347 can have good street manners and produce the numbers he expects on pump gas.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 04:01 PM

460FWHP/347c.i.d.=1.325 FWHP per c.i.d. 460FWHP/15% loss through a T-5 (estimated loss) = 400RWHP.

1.325 HP per c.i.d. is an "achievable" value for a "street engine". With a well thought out "combo" (I'm not getting into a pissing match over cylinder head choices here) the 347 can have good street manners and produce the numbers he expects on pump gas.

Thanks for the numbers. I would appreciate your opinion on heads. I always thought that AFR were the best, but I agree that the right 'combo' is always the best way to go.

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 04:11 PM

Well I'll list what I want to get and you tell me what you think. Also, If I have the heads ported a little bit, would that help?

Not sure of the amount of material that is present in the AFR 185 ports. So, I can't tell ya if porting them would be a viable option.

Exhaust - will reuse current setup. BBK longtube ceramics, O/R h-pipe, flowmaster catback

Cam - not sure yet. might go with the XE266 something or other, or possibly a custom grind. I want to have a heavy lope with an aggresive idle

Rockers - 1.71 roller rockers

Intake - probably not the best choice, but a polished ford racing 'cobra' intake (possibly with a port job). I know their are much better intakes out their, but I want to slowly chrome out the engine.

TB - not really sure about a model, but at least 65mm or higher. Also want to get a 70mm or higher MAF calibrated w/ 30lb injectors

The exhaust: What size are the primary tubes on the long tubes?

The cam: custom is always a great way to match the combo. The xe266 is too small for a 347 application. That is a 302 part for sure.

The rockers: 1.6 ratio "should" suffice "if" the cam is selected correctly.

The intake: The cobra intake will produce an abundant amount of low and mid range power BUT that intake may become the limitation in your quest for 400 RWHP

The T.B.: 75mm T.B. and a M.A.F. equal to that size or larger.

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 04:22 PM

The exhaust: What size are the primary tubes on the long tubes? I believe 1 5/8. not sure though

The cam: custom is always a great way to match the combo. The xe266 is too small for a 347 application. That is a 302 part for sure.

The rockers: 1.6 ratio "should" suffice "if" the cam is selected correctly.

The intake: The cobra intake will produce an abundant amount of low and mid range power BUT that intake may become the limitation in your quest for 400 RWHP Yes, i realize that the intake will be my 'weakest' link

The T.B.: 75mm T.B. and a M.A.F. equal to that size or larger.

Answers in red above

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 04:23 PM

Thanks for the numbers. I would appreciate your opinion on heads. I always thought that AFR were the best, but I agree that the right 'combo' is always the best way to go.

Not sure about being able to port the 185's. I am not aware if there is any material left to increase port volume. I do not think there is a "best" head. It's all about the combination. I know it sound cliche, but it is the truth. I have seen many TFS Twisted Wedge combo's that produce horrible numbers(if that is what appeals to you) and then again I have seen AFR headed small blocks that were lethargic as well.

Being able to appease a budget and being satisfied with the results sometimes is never realized. Getting caught up in numbers can take the fun out of it. My best advice to you would be to do some research on the corral(did I just say corral). There are a couple of 347's that produce 400 @ the tires. You may be able to base your combo from what somebody has already researched and proven.

Hardcore50.com is also a great place to lurk around and take in what is said. This is a premier site that offers zero tolerance for ignorance. I have learned quite a bit from the people over there!

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 04:27 PM

Not sure about being able to port the 185's. I am not aware if there is any material left to increase port volume. I do not think there is a "best" head. It's all about the combination. I know it sound cliche, but it is the truth. I have seen many TFS Twisted Wedge combo's that produce horrible numbers(if that is what appeals to you) and then again I have seen AFR headed small blocks that were lethargic as well.

Being able to appease a budget and being satisfied with the results sometimes is never realized. Getting caught up in numbers can take the fun out of it. My best advice to you would be to do some research on the corral(did I just say corral). There are a couple of 347's that produce 400 @ the tires. You may be able to base your combo from what somebody has already researched and proven.

Thanks for the tips. Your right. If I am only good at one thing, it is research and I do it very well. I can try to find someone who has what I 'want' and see what they put out, then find someone who 'puts out' what I want and see what they got. I am in no hurry, just gathering data for now.

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 05:08 PM

Something that may interest you.

http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article110/A-P1.htm

RUSH2112

01-18-2007, 05:52 PM

Something that may interest you.

http://airflowresearch.com/articles/article110/A-P1.htm

Interesting article. I'll read it more carefully later. There final HP #'s were 481HP, but I assume that is at the crank.

madmaxin22

01-18-2007, 05:52 PM

i know 400rwhp is doable w/ a good working 347 combo... but would take alot more $ and i doubt it would be very streetable as he wants his to be.... Do you want to lose your a/c? smog? even a heavily worked cobra intake will be the bottleneck but it would still put a smile on your face and would be interesting on a 347.....

i cant see hitting 400rwhp as a goal w/o a custom solid roller cam, different intake and maybe even the 205 heads or a different head all together as well as getting rid of the a/c, smog, etc...... either way, do your research and talk to some of the cam gurus and they might be able to point you in the way that best fits your goals... :pepper:

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 06:05 PM

Interesting article. I'll read it more carefully later. There final HP #'s were 481HP, but I assume that is at the crank.

Yes that is flywheel H.P.

Pure Stock

01-18-2007, 06:48 PM

Here is a streetable 347 combo that makes 460 RWHP. And here is the phone number for anybody in dis-belief. 330-634-2155 Ask for Brian Tooley proprietor of Total Engine Airflow.

347 11.0:1 compression
TFS TW 205cc CNC'D
Off the shelf TFS hydrualic roller cam NON-custom
TFS R-series lower with TFS R box upper
90mm T.B.
1 3/4" headers

See I just had to put that TFS plug in there:goodidea:

somethingclever

01-18-2007, 06:54 PM

coralcoupe1993

01-18-2007, 11:39 PM

gmkillr

01-19-2007, 01:02 AM

Wow, that had to be in the 7000rpm range!!
Thats just awesome!!:woot1:

Pure Stock

01-19-2007, 02:50 AM

I have a feeling this might be out of the original posters budget. :veryhappy:

What RPM did it make the peak hp/tq?

I don't know. But I am wanting to know as well. I'd say in the upper 6,000 range.

Pure Stock

01-19-2007, 02:52 AM

I love TFS!

I'd love to try a pair of heads from them;)

Pure Stock

01-19-2007, 02:53 AM

Wow, that had to be in the 7000rpm range!!
Thats just awesome!!:woot1:

That very well may be the next combo. How's everything with you Rob?

Viper_ed

01-19-2007, 09:16 AM

I'd love to try a pair of heads from them;)

Just have Ron do a FULL port of yours!

04yellowcobra

01-19-2007, 09:17 AM

I think its more than doable, I will be tayloring my engine around this one from Corral!!

"83 conv,stock 88 bottom end with dremeled pistons,vict jr heads,vict jr intake,750 dp,anderson n91,tremac3550,spec stage2,4.56 gears,spool,superior axles (http://www.corral.net/forums/private.php?do=showpm&pmid=2076611#),hal k member,90/10s,50/50s,best et 11.22 at 122.00 388 rwhp 331fpot "

coralcoupe1993

01-19-2007, 10:14 AM

I'd love to try a pair of heads from them;)

I have some! :rolleyes:

gmkillr

01-19-2007, 10:42 AM

That very well may be the next combo. How's everything with you Rob?

Pretty good, I have my Cobra upper out being ported as we speak, should have it back in another week or so. I need to get this K-member installed along w/ the Moroso spring I got from you & the Lakewood 90-10's I got from Tom. Then im gonna have Tim Rodehaever weld in my upper & lower torque boc reinforcements. Couple other little thing here & there, but thats the most of it. How bout you, are you leaning any certain way for a new combo or are you going to try & get a little more out of your current combo?
You just might have a 10.5 in that badboy!!:woot1:

Pure Stock

01-19-2007, 03:06 PM

Pretty good, I have my Cobra upper out being ported as we speak, should have it back in another week or so. I need to get this K-member installed along w/ the Moroso spring I got from you & the Lakewood 90-10's I got from Tom. Then im gonna have Tim Rodehaever weld in my upper & lower torque boc reinforcements. Couple other little thing here & there, but thats the most of it. How bout you, are you leaning any certain way for a new combo or are you going to try & get a little more out of your current combo?
You just might have a 10.5 in that badboy!!:woot1:

That sounds like what you'll need to get into the 1.5 60' realm. I'd like to pull out a little more weight for this upcoming season. I will most likely keep the combo the same for the most part, although, it's those little tweaks that I'll be experimenting with for '07. I also want to get that thing dynoed in the current configuration. Kooks headers may be a welcome addition as well. A tune would be beneficial too, I think:worried: