Turbo 427 rebuild

[biminiLX]

Looks like I will be building version 2.0 of this motor after inspection found a few things that need to be addressed with the motor.
As some of you know, my car is up at Street Lethal and Terry, Shawn, George and the guys have been taking good care of some major upgrades (will post a car build thread later).
The car was converted to an AOD last year and had one testing session before the flexplate and starter teeth had a disagreement. After removing the trans, the flexplate is slightly warped and there are impressions of the flexplate bolts on the front of the converter (billet 10.5" front half). Then one cylinder wouldn't hold compression while checking the valve springs, so the motor was pulled and found to have 2 cracked intake valve springs, a few loose valve guides, and bearing material in the pan from a wiped thrust bearing. Main bearings also need replacement but the cylinders, heads, pistons, rods, etc. all look fine.
So, nothing too terrible and glad it was found early. Might be for the best to allow updating the motor and making it ready for 20psi, 7000rpm traps and 1200hp http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif
This is the plan, feel free to comment or recommend changes.

427" Short block:
W-351 9.5" 4-bolt SVO 2.75" main siamese block (same)
4.125" bore Diamond custom turbo pistons, tool steel pins, hell Fire rings (same)
4.0" Scat billet crank (will change from 28oz. to neutral balance)
6.200" Howard billet rods with ARP 2000 bolts (upgrade 4340 Scat Hs w/ regular ARP bolts)
Stef's custom pan and Melling HV oil pump (same)
ATI aluminum hub balancer and JW flexplate (new)

Induction:
TFS High Ports Ed Curtis/Flowtech Induction CNC 240cc package with 8mm 2.08/1.6 valves and LSx springs/moly retainers :goodidea: (replace 227cc Bennett stage 3 CNC Vic Jrs. with 2.05/1.6 valves)
Edelbrock 2828 Super Victor converted to EFI :goodidea: (replace Ed/FTI ported/modified Victor EFI long-runner intake)
4500 Dominator flange 4-hole TB in Vortech carb enclosure box :goodidea: (replace 85mm TB)
1.7 ratio Probe shaft rockers (replace 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers)
Ed/FTI custom hydraulic roller turbo cam .624/.579 240/236 116 with 1.6s (same)
Morel link-bar HR lifters (replace FRPP factory style lifters/spider)
Stiff wall pushrods (new)

Turbo:
Same TeamZ kit with Comp cover GT4788 1.08 T6 88mm turbo, 1 3/4" turbo headers, 3" crossover. May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection. Same fuel system.

Plan:
The motor will be broken-in like last time with a carb on an engine dyno. Last motor made 521hp @ 56-5800 and 518tq @47-4800 with a small vic jr/750cfm no power tuning, just break-in.
Hope to make about 600hp on motor, then modifications of the turbo kit before chassis dyno tuning at Street Lethal. Last made 720rwhp at 19psi on a tight Mustang dyno (was 865/900 with the stick on a Dynojet at 15psi) and went 9.60@148 on 13.5psi with 1.58 60' leaving without boost in 90+ heat about 3250# (went 9.84@149 on 15psi with a stick).
Ultimate goal is to run consistent 8.50-60s @ 160-65mph in True Street events.
Hoping to do that with as little rpm and boost as necesary http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif
Let me know what you think.
-J

[biminiLX]

Here's the 2828 Super Vic intake:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/1221102235_0001.jpg
I will be converting it to EFI with my father-in-law who is a CNC tool/die machinist, I will post pics of the progress and make a thread on that.
This intake has a 4500 Dominator flange and 3.6 sq. in. runners (bigger than 2924 regular SV). Will have a basic port match to the heads and whatever minor plenum touches are recommended. It requires -AN water fittings but I already have a -16 AN rad hose so this should just require a Y-connection.
Here is the base of a Vortech/Paxton carb enclosure on the intake:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/1221102237_0001.jpg
I found this 4500 flange prototype base for cheap on Ebay and decided to try it. Not the normal elbow and regular TB, but this should decrease intake distribution issues and it is actually shorter than a high flow elbow. The added plenum volume and larger 4-hole throttle bores should help also.
Plus it will be different and look cool ;)

The entire top-end and other parts like the rods will be for sale if you're interested, I'll be getting pics and making a FS ad.
Plan is to get the parts to the engine builder mid-late Jan and making noise on the engine dyno in March, I'll update this thread with pics, flow numbers, progress, etc.
-J

[Martin0660]

Sounds like a hell of a build ...


May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection.

FWIW, Dave Flanders has tested non intercooled and intercooled on straight methanol and ultimately makes more power and is more reliable (true street stuff) with the intercooler. This is a 900 HP (ish) combo.

Personally, I am not a fan of water / methanol injection. Lots of claims of big timing numbers with it, but most are enough timing to overcome the wash down from the water. Too many parts to fail for my liking as well (failed pumps, clogged nozzles, etc, etc).

[Mater]

Nice congrats have fun with ur build!

[cemnt guy]

since my car is at terrys also, i looked at this fox today. car is bad a##:awsome:love those wheels and tires

[PaxtonShelby]

J - a photo of your car should be next to the word "bad-ass" in the dictionary!!!! :D

[biminiLX]

Thanks guys, will definitely keep this updated. Will get some engine/parts pics and engine dyno vid.


FWIW, Dave Flanders has tested non intercooled and intercooled on straight methanol and ultimately makes more power and is more reliable (true street stuff) with the intercooler. This is a 900 HP (ish) combo.

Personally, I am not a fan of water / methanol injection. Lots of claims of big timing numbers with it, but most are enough timing to overcome the wash down from the water. Too many parts to fail for my liking as well (failed pumps, clogged nozzles, etc, etc).
I hear ya Bob, and I'll probably stay with the intercooler, but I really think my combo would be fine non-intercooled on water/meth injection with reasonable boost (probably 20psi max) and safety with the XFI management. Car doesn't really need the intercooler on the street just off the wastegate spring which I'm planning to be around 7psi.
Biggest reason though is just all the room it would free-up for coolers (rad/oil/trans) and fans--would probably give a few psi too.
Also, more HP available while keeping 96# injectors and 110 octane.
I talked to the guy at AIS (alcohol injection systems I believe) for about an hour and liked what I heard.
-J

[SK@StreetLethal]

It's an awesome car and we are glad to be a part of this build!

[biminiLX]

Thanks Shaun, Street Lethal has been great so far, glad its at a quality shop and will get all things addressed Terry and I have discussed.
-J

[biminiLX]

since my car is at terrys also, i looked at this fox today. car is bad a##:awsome:love those wheels and tires
Thanks man, but it is honestly the dirtiest its ever been since I owned it :o, should be back on track this year lookin' good and running hard. :awsome:
-J

[yeahloh95]

wow with that new induction set up it should really make the ets drop

[Black Vert]

The car was converted to an AOD last year and had one testing session before the flexplate and starter teeth had a disagreement. After removing the trans, the flexplate is slightly warped and there are impressions of the flexplate bolts on the front of the converter (billet 10.5" front half). Then one cylinder wouldn't hold compression while checking the valve springs, so the motor was pulled and found to have 2 cracked intake valve springs, a few loose valve guides, and bearing material in the pan from a wiped thrust bearing.

-J


I think its time to put the Shelby drivetrain in it, but that would be a downgrade for you :laughing1:

Its sounds like you ballooned your converter, pushed the crank forward and wiped out the thrust bearing. Im sure your converter has dual anti-ballooning plates though, but by your description of the flexplate bolt impressions and wiped out bearing thats what comes to mind.

Hope to see it this spring, have to get all the Turbo Stangs to the track next year :pepper:

[biminiLX]

I think its time to put the Shelby drivetrain in it, but that would be a downgrade for you :laughing1:

Its sounds like you ballooned your converter, pushed the crank forward and wiped out the thrust bearing. Im sure your converter has dual anti-ballooning plates though, but by your description of the flexplate bolt impressions and wiped out bearing thats what comes to mind.

Hope to see it this spring, have to get all the Turbo Stangs to the track next year :pepper:
Yeah, thought of the Shelby drivetrain but weird to think of it as a downgrade :)

Also thought about the converter ballooning but that is a replica of the converter in a combo that was pushing it harder and it has the anti-ballooning treatment and billet front half so I wouldn't suspect that.
Maybe the converter was just set-up too tight, not enough clearance to FP, maybe too big FR bolt heads, something else?
I have my doubts on the install, will have everything double checked outside of the car this time.
I definitely plan on having it out around here for testing in the spring, would be cool to meet up with you guys at PRP.
-J

[cemnt guy]

when you turbo guys go to prp ,please post it so i can go down there to watch. hell i might even run my car:D

[mlowry1260]

J,

you should see a huge difference in down the track IAT by rptating the intercooler to a nearly vertical position. The apparent opening due to the extreme tilt of the intervooler as previously installed had to kill the flow through the cooler & radiator. I'd wait to see what Terry can do with the exist cooler. Keeping the intercooker as Bob said will be the most reliable. If you want to add a water injector for track passes, I could see that. But for true street I'd go passive cooling for simplicity.

You might want to talk converters with Allan @ dirty dog performanve outside of Cincinnati if you haven't sourced that yet. He specializes in AOD & 4R's.

[pwtmxracing]

sounds good what type of air intake tepms did u see with that air to air setup

[pwtmxracing]

when you turbo guys go to prp ,please post it so i can go down there to watch. hell i might even run my car:D
i will b there for the first test and tune :awsome:

[phillysrt4]

Turbo:
Same TeamZ kit with Comp cover GT4788 1.08 T6 88mm turbo, 1 3/4" turbo headers, 3" crossover. May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection. Same fuel system.


EDIT - that sounds like a nasty setup! You MUST post dyno vid when its done!!

What turbo is that based on? My calcs say that, assuming peak power at 6800 RPM, inlet temp of 110F and A/F of 12:1, and a few other assumptions you need 132 lb/min of air and you're running right around a 2.5 pressure ratio to get 1200 flywheel horsepower.

[Wolfpack Speed]

Looks like I will be building version 2.0 of this motor after inspection found a few things that need to be addressed with the motor.
As some of you know, my car is up at Street Lethal and Terry, Shawn, George and the guys have been taking good care of some major upgrades (will post a car build thread later).
The car was converted to an AOD last year and had one testing session before the flexplate and starter teeth had a disagreement. After removing the trans, the flexplate is slightly warped and there are impressions of the flexplate bolts on the front of the converter (billet 10.5" front half). Then one cylinder wouldn't hold compression while checking the valve springs, so the motor was pulled and found to have 2 cracked intake valve springs, a few loose valve guides, and bearing material in the pan from a wiped thrust bearing. Main bearings also need replacement but the cylinders, heads, pistons, rods, etc. all look fine.
So, nothing too terrible and glad it was found early. Might be for the best to allow updating the motor and making it ready for 20psi, 7000rpm traps and 1200hp http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif
This is the plan, feel free to comment or recommend changes.

427" Short block:
W-351 9.5" 4-bolt SVO 2.75" main siamese block (same)
4.125" bore Diamond custom turbo pistons, tool steel pins, hell Fire rings (same)
4.0" Scat billet crank (will change from 28oz. to neutral balance)
6.200" Howard billet rods with ARP 2000 bolts (upgrade 4340 Scat Hs w/ regular ARP bolts)
Stef's custom pan and Melling HV oil pump (same)
ATI aluminum hub balancer and JW flexplate (new)

Induction:
TFS High Ports Ed Curtis/Flowtech Induction CNC 240cc package with 8mm 2.08/1.6 valves and LSx springs/moly retainers :goodidea: (replace 227cc Bennett stage 3 CNC Vic Jrs. with 2.05/1.6 valves)
Edelbrock 2828 Super Victor converted to EFI :goodidea: (replace Ed/FTI ported/modified Victor EFI long-runner intake)
4500 Dominator flange 4-hole TB in Vortech carb enclosure box :goodidea: (replace 85mm TB)
1.7 ratio Probe shaft rockers (replace 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers)
Ed/FTI custom hydraulic roller turbo cam .624/.579 240/236 116 with 1.6s (same)
Morel link-bar HR lifters (replace FRPP factory style lifters/spider)
Stiff wall pushrods (new)

Turbo:
Same TeamZ kit with Comp cover GT4788 1.08 T6 88mm turbo, 1 3/4" turbo headers, 3" crossover. May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection. Same fuel system.

Plan:
The motor will be broken-in like last time with a carb on an engine dyno. Last motor made 521hp @ 56-5800 and 518tq @47-4800 with a small vic jr/750cfm no power tuning, just break-in.
Hope to make about 600hp on motor, then modifications of the turbo kit before chassis dyno tuning at Street Lethal. Last made 720rwhp at 19psi on a tight Mustang dyno (was 865/900 with the stick on a Dynojet at 15psi) and went 9.60@148 on 13.5psi with 1.58 60' leaving without boost in 90+ heat about 3250# (went 9.84@149 on 15psi with a stick).
Ultimate goal is to run consistent 8.50-60s @ 160-65mph in True Street events.
Hoping to do that with as little rpm and boost as necesary http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif
Let me know what you think.
-J


Ahhh man, sorry to hear about the car J, good luck with the new build:thmbsup:

[biminiLX]

Hey Mike, thanks bro, but thats racin' right?
Oh well, caught it in time, going to build better and stronger!:awsome:


EDIT - that sounds like a nasty setup! You MUST post dyno vid when its done!!

What turbo is that based on? My calcs say that, assuming peak power at 6800 RPM, inlet temp of 110F and A/F of 12:1, and a few other assumptions you need 132 lb/min of air and you're running right around a 2.5 pressure ratio to get 1200 flywheel horsepower.
Pretty close but I don't think peak will be that high.
I got about 2.5 pressure ratio and between 95 and 125 lb/min based on my calcs (depending on boost) and this is close to my compressor map:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/catalog/Turbochargers/gt47_images/GT4718compmap_e.jpg
Its a GT4788 (which they call a GT4718) and its a 1.08 A/R so it will be close to the efficiency island. We'll see, whatever it takes to run the number :thumbsup:
I'm loading some vids now from the chassis dyno and auto track test, will post soon.
-J

[biminiLX]

http://www.steelcitystangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21842
Think it'll go faster thisyear? ;)
-J

[phillysrt4]

I got about 2.5 pressure ratio and between 95 and 125 lb/min based on my calcs (depending on boost) and this is close to my compressor map:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/images/catalog/Turbochargers/gt47_images/GT4718compmap_e.jpg
Its a GT4788 (which they call a GT4718) and its a 1.08 A/R so it will be close to the efficiency island. We'll see, whatever it takes to run the number :thumbsup:
I'm loading some vids now from the chassis dyno and auto track test, will post soon.


Nice! That turbo looks like its going to be perfect for your application especially at a 2.5 pressure ratio and 95-12X lb/min of air.

I cant wait for vids! :)

[biminiLX]

Nice! That turbo looks like its going to be perfect for your application especially at a 2.5 pressure ratio and 95-12X lb/min of air.

I cant wait for vids! :)
Thanks man, I'd love to have a 91mm and a compressor map shorter and wider to the right, but I think it'll do fine :twothumbsup:
I will keep it updated, build/parts pics, engine dyno vid and chassis dyno vid coming soon.
-J

[CollinsPC]

J

Good luck with the build! Let me know when it is my turn for a ride!!:jump:

[biminiLX]

Ed Curtis delivered a few presents to my engine builder:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/Headintport.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/Headexport.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/Headchamber.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/Headsprings.jpg
Too bad I didn't get to see them in person :(
These were the last of the hard parts, all that is left is to mock up the 1.7 Prob shaft rockers, order some Smith Bros. 3/8" pushrods and port match the 2828 Glidden Super Victor intake.
Dyno day for NA carb break-in scheduled for Sat. April 23rd.
Doing just like I did with the previous version of this engine, just a break-in procedure with a carb and no real tuning for power. Last made 520/520, this version will be same compression, increased rocker ratio and bigger heads/intake. I'd like to see 600hp NA but NA numbers aren't what I'm after ;)
Plan on flowing the heads and intake and then both together. If I still have the old heads and intake I will do the same with them just for data.
-J

[biminiLX]

As soon as its off the engine dyno its going to Street Lethal to get serious!
I need to update the build thread, but I also sold my GT4788 turbo and air-air cold side intercooler. Custom 88mm 275X legal new model borg-warner on way from Reed at Work Turbo and I will be doing an under-dash air-water set-up with rear facing TB.
I had mocked this up but it was just too tall:
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/intake2.jpg
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/jotting/intake1.jpg
-J

[Martin0660]

Reed at Work Turbo

Work Turbo??? Is this the same Reed that was at a well known shop? Link to your guys?

[gmkillr]

Lookin sweet J!!!!!!!!!

Cant wait to see what this new combo will do!

[biminiLX]

Work Turbo??? Is this the same Reed that was at a well known shop? Link to your guys?
Yep, same Reed from Supernatural Turbo but he and Matt his partner split that amicably so he could do his own thing just with turbos, Supernatural may become something more comprehensive with turbos, Work will be actual turbo units only.
He doesn't have a site up yet, he wants pics of my car to include in the new website launch.
This new 88mm is a pre-production Borg-warner S500/510 big boy that is supposedly the best cast wheel 88 you can buy now. I'm keeping it 88 in case I want to run in some 88 only classes for fun, I think it will upgrade as big as 114mm on the compressor.

Thanks Robert, when your's planning on testing?
-J

[Martin0660]

Yep, same Reed from Supernatural Turbo but he and Matt his partner split that amicably so he could do his own thing just with turbos

Gotcha, didnt want to start something and say Supernatural until you confirmed it. Reed really has a good reputation with turbo's, as long as he keeps that up he should do fine on his own.


I'm keeping it 88 in case I want to run in some 88 only classes for fun, I think it will upgrade as big as 114mm on the compressor.

Is the 88 mm a limit in x275 or what classes?

I guess I don't spend enough of time on YB, I'm not fast enough to hang out with the cool kids there ;)

[somethingclever]

Well J....what's the scoop on this past weekends dyno romping?

[TooFast98Cobra]

dyno operater got sick, he couldn't go.

[biminiLX]

Yeah, fking shingles :(
That can really knock you down so I'm giving him a pass but it really needs to happen this saturday or else my schedule is screwed.
-J

[somethingclever]

Yeah, fking shingles :(
That can really knock you down so I'm giving him a pass but it really needs to happen this saturday or else my schedule is screwed.
-J


I'll run that dyno for you...just say the word. ;)

[somethingclever]

Any updates J ?

[biminiLX]

Yep, crank/rods I bought are high end pieces (good) but set-up for a piston centered rod (bad). Getting piston spacers made now, not a big deal but dyno will now be Sat. June 4th. Also found excessive wear on cam gear, so new billet core hydraulic roller arrived yesterday.
More delays, but F**K it, it needs to be right, I'm not rushing it.
On a side note I got to inspect the heads and ported intake and they are things of beauty, way better in person.
-J

[yeahloh95]

yes it pays to do it right , while you have the chance

[somethingclever]

Any updates on getting the new turbo on and car tuned?

[biminiLX]

Wish I had a good update John.
The motor and turbo have been at Street Lethal since early June but there are many things to do (rear fender mods, paint, fabbing headers, rad/fans, intercooler, etc.) and they are trying to get a break in their schedule to get it in and dedicate the time (prob 6-8wks) to complete everything.
Hope to make some passes late Sept/early Oct. :(
315/60/15 DRs and 15x12 are on the car and look killer, the entire interior and minitubs have been Lizard skin coated (sound deadener/ceramic heat protection) and the cage painted with a nice fine bedliner type coating. All that looks great, just need to move onto the stuff that makes noise :)
There will be updates when things get moving.
-J

[somethingclever]

Sounds good J...didn't realize all that other work was getting done as well.

[PaxtonShelby]

This build is the equivalent of making Megan Fox even hotter...

[03 OW SVT]

Anyone know what happened to Jay and this build? He hasn't been on here since the end of last year. Hope everything is alright.

[CollinsPC]

J is doing well, he is busy at work and is still messing with that little turbo thingy he started.

[cemnt guy]

good question. last time i saw his car it was on a trailer headin for ohio. that is a badass car 4 sure.

[03 OW SVT]

J is doing well, he is busy at work and is still messing with that little turbo thingy he started.

Thanks Randy, just checkin:twothumbsup:

[Martin0660]

Yeah, he is busy with his new practice ... I saw some update pictures and they are about pure sex ;) I'm hoping he can at least make it out to Milan NMRA again this year.

[mlowry1260]

J & the family moved back to Toledo. The car is progressing well now that it's at a good shop.

[TooFast98Cobra]

J & the family moved back to Toledo. The car is progressing well now that it's at a good shop.


X2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its actually getting worked on now, no more sitting in the mud/snow.

[cemnt guy]

J & the family moved back to Toledo. The car is progressing well now that it's at a good shop.
?:dunno:

[SK@StreetLethal]

?:dunno:
Yeah I'm interested to hear this..

[gmkillr]

J & the family moved back to Toledo. The car is progressing well now that it's at a good shop.

Yeah thats what I heard!

[cemnt guy]

i plan to use same shop someday,whats the deal?

[THE BIG KOALA]

^this

[John4cam]

Days of our lives, SCS style.

[03 OW SVT]

i plan to use same shop someday,whats the deal?

I have used their shop for 4 years now (3 different Mustangs) and have always been more then pleased with the work. I don't understand why those guys are saying that.

[03 OW SVT]

They have even worked on my GN, and did a fantastic job on replacing an exhaust manifold. I'm gonna let them replace the Valve Springs and Cam Sensor in the future also.