Warranty Paranoia (a.k.a. why did i buy a new car?)

[phillysrt4]

After reading some information on tuning and finding TSB 11-7-7 (related to 5.0's having unauthorized mods and telling dealers how to find them and void the powertrain side of the warranty) I decided to give FRPP a call to get some more information on gears and changing the parameters in the computer to accommodate the ratio change.

As many of you out there know, the 11+ computers have a setup in nonvolatile memory that shows how many times a tune has been flashed. What FRPP told me was that it doesn't have to be just ignition timing, fuel, or valve control that will increment that flag. ANY changes to ANY parameters (even changing to a different diameter tire where you have to change the revolutions per mile to keep the speedo accurate and the ABS/TC working right) will increment that flag so when a tech plugs in their computer to talk to the car's computer, that will come up and they will go down the flowchart in the TSB to determine if your powertrain should be voided.

Fortunately this TSB only seems to be directed at 5.0's, but who knows. Perhaps with the "dealership mentality" of "well if you have a v6 and want more power just buy a 5.0" means they won't bother or think about anything like this with a v6. But who knows.

So, if it is a mod that is going to require any parameter changes, I either noid about the warranty or make sure I have about 5k in reserve so I can replace any parts out of warranty.

[somethingclever]

good info...








start saving

[phillysrt4]

Yep, pretty much. No mods that require a retune or parameter changes this year, so probably just a few boltons.

[Mark Aubele]

What I don't understand is why people expect a manufacturer to honor a warranty after a car has been tuned.

[yeahloh95]

it should only void the warrenty if the aftermarket piece tune or other parts caused the problem

[phillysrt4]

What I don't understand is why people expect a manufacturer to honor a warranty after a car has been tuned.

I wasn't looking for a tune per se. I was looking to change the gears so that I wouldn't have to change the tune to get more power. The problem is the way they set up the nonvolatile memory storage it cant discern if you made a change because you changed gears or tire size or if you made a change because you wanted 5 billion degrees of timing and no fuel. A change is a change.

[Cam99]

I can understand voiding a warranty if a car is tuned for a nitrous system, turbo, blower, cams, blah blah, but changing tire diameter, or putting on a cai with one the canned sct or similar tunes is NOT going to damage the car. The canned tunes are very conservative just for that reason. I'm out of tyhe loop, but didn't some of the FRPP mods come with a tuner? I'm almost sure. They surely shouldn't void the warranty from that and I doubt they could tell if the flash was from their sct tuner, or anybody elses sct tuner if it's flashed back to stock.

[phillysrt4]

it should only void the warrenty if the aftermarket piece tune or other parts caused the problem

There is no magnusson moss warranty act up here. There are a few acts that come close to being the same thing, but its not quite the same thing

[phillysrt4]

I can understand voiding a warranty if a car is tuned for a nitrous system, turbo, blower, cams, blah blah, but changing tire diameter, or putting on a cai with one the canned sct or similar tunes is NOT going to damage the car. The canned tunes are very conservative just for that reason. I'm out of tyhe loop, but didn't some of the FRPP mods come with a tuner? I'm almost sure. They surely shouldn't void the warranty from that and I doubt they could tell if the flash was from their sct tuner, or anybody elses sct tuner if it's flashed back to stock.

I'll double check on the FRPP site if you can get gears with a tuner/calibrator.

As for the flashing, there is a flash counter in nonvolatile memory, so if you flash it to a tune it increments the counter by 1, then flashing it back increments the counter again. So flashing something in then flashing it back is clearly shown in the computer.

Of course if its just a gear change there is no need to flash it back. They could look at the PCM, see it was flashed once, see that the tune itself wasn't changed and thus keep the warranty intact for everything but the gears. I'm just not sure if I want to go through all that hassle at this time.

EDIT - I'm trying to decide between 3.73's and 4.10's. What if I get 4.10's but I find they're too tall and I want to switch again? Those 2 flashes could be interpreted as "he flashed a tune in, broke something, then tried to flash it back to stock". So to be on the safe side I'm just not going to bother with gears at this time and only lightly mod it with things that the stock tune knows how to compensate for.

EDIT 2- Cam- here's the TSB http://thehorsepowerjunkies.com/blogpdf/ford_tuning_tsb.pdf

[Cam99]

There is no magnusson moss warranty act up here. There are a few acts that come close to being the same thing, but its not quite the same thing

F-ing Canada LOL. You need to become very friendly with your local ford dealership. They have control weather they submit it under warranty or deny it

[phillysrt4]

F-ing Canada LOL. You need to become very friendly with your local ford dealership. They have control weather they submit it under warranty or deny it

True. The last couple of times I was in they were slammed with work. Hopefully when I can swing by tomorrow I can have a moment to talk with the service manager.

[scorpio333]

This is the first I've heard of the flowchart in the TSB. However, I it doesn't there's a way for them to tell what changed. On paper they need to prove you did something specific to cause a failure. We all know the reverse is most likely the case, you need to prove it.

A good friend of mine has worked for Ford here and there and he's said he's never checked for such things. Now I could see someone bringing in something with big ($$$) problems and the dealer not wanting to cover it or the factory denies the claim until more info is gathered.

All that said, I just ordered a tuner for the F150 this morning. Live dangerously.

[Mark Aubele]

I wasn't looking for a tune per se. I was looking to change the gears so that I wouldn't have to change the tune to get more power. The problem is the way they set up the nonvolatile memory storage it cant discern if you made a change because you changed gears or tire size or if you made a change because you wanted 5 billion degrees of timing and no fuel. A change is a change.

I certainly agree that gears should not affect warranty, thought we were talking about tunes. I fail at reading comprehension.

[Stangman701]

If you want the gears bad enough just deal with the speedometer being off. Once you drive it for a few days you'll get used to it. I know you got the math skillz to figure out X RPM in Y gear = Z speed. At that point your tach becomes your speedometer.

[Mark Aubele]

If you want the gears bad enough just deal with the speedometer being off. Once you drive it for a few days you'll get used to it. I know you got the math skillz to figure out X RPM in Y gear = Z speed. At that point your tach becomes your speedometer.

Problem with that is the car is governed to something stupid like 112 mph.

[Cam99]

It might throw the traction control. stability control, whatever ford has into a panic attack? It does with my 26" tall dr's on the camaro which shuts off all the nannies (win for me!) but you might not want that on a dd. If it doesn't then heck yeah, dont worry about the speedo being off

[phillysrt4]

I certainly agree that gears should not affect warranty, thought we were talking about tunes. I fail at reading comprehension.

No, I fail at writing. I used "tune" too many times where I should have said "parameters". That was my bad

[phillysrt4]

If you want the gears bad enough just deal with the speedometer being off. Once you drive it for a few days you'll get used to it. I know you got the math skillz to figure out X RPM in Y gear = Z speed. At that point your tach becomes your speedometer.

It might throw the traction control. stability control, whatever ford has into a panic attack? It does with my 26" tall dr's on the camaro which shuts off all the nannies (win for me!) but you might not want that on a dd. If it doesn't then heck yeah, dont worry about the speedo being off

You both are right (about being able to calculate real speed and the TC getting weird). I hate driving with warning lights on a DD.


Problem with that is the car is governed to something stupid like 112 mph.

Yep, or 180 kay which I agree is dumb. When I went to do a dyno pull I was expecting the usual 4th gear pulls. So I started the pull and got to 180 and all of a sudden it just hung there and I got a reading of something like 231 hp. Then I realized "oh, governor" and did the 3rd gear pull to get my power numbers (which btw, 3rd gear with stock 3.31's = 160km/h [about 100mph] top speed so in reality you only need 4th for the last 20km/h to hit the limiter)

[Viper_ed]

Bottom line is you are concerned about warranty, then don't piss with modifying anything.

[phillysrt4]

Bottom line is you are concerned about warranty, then don't piss with modifying anything.

That's the plan I have now. When I bought they car they seemed cool with bolt ons gears and a tune, but I decided that gears would be fine for now just to give it a little more pep. Then I see this TSB on the 5.0's and it makes me just say "its not worth it. its fun enough as it is in stock form anyway"

I can say that things seem to have really "cracked down" since my SRT4 days with respect to warranty work. Sure I see the point if you do something stupid and blow up your car that Ford shouldn't have to pay for it, but it almost seems lately with all these stories on the internet that car companies are just looking for excuses not to back up their own work. Even if it is indeed their manufacturing defect, why give them an excuse?

[jaa55]

why dont you just have a ford garage put the gears in and tune it?

[phillysrt4]

This is the first I've heard of the flowchart in the TSB. However, I it doesn't there's a way for them to tell what changed. On paper they need to prove you did something specific to cause a failure. We all know the reverse is most likely the case, you need to prove it.

A good friend of mine has worked for Ford here and there and he's said he's never checked for such things. Now I could see someone bringing in something with big ($$$) problems and the dealer not wanting to cover it or the factory denies the claim until more info is gathered.

All that said, I just ordered a tuner for the F150 this morning. Live dangerously.

I haven't followed TSB's too much lately, but I think there was one in a dodge neon SRT4 TSB (or maybe it was a memo? i forget as this was back in 2006) about people putting on aftermarket stuff, popping the powertrain then going back to stock for warranty work. It discussed how to spot this and how to get assistance to void powertrain warranties.

Good luck with your tuner! :twothumbsup:


why dont you just have a ford garage put the gears in and tune it?

At first I wasn't sure if there was any point to that, but the more I think about it the more I see what you're thinking. By having a dealer do it there is a paper trail that allows the dealership to match up the flash counter with parameter changes.

As an aside, although the original TSB posted doesn't pertain the V6's this is the first time I've seen something sent down from corporate on a normally aspirated car about tuning/parameter changes and warranty work. I found it surprising and I thought I'd share this info at the same time since there are quite a few 11+ 5.0 owners on here. It seems like Ford is trying to steer things in a direction where you need to take your car to a dealer just to change your tire diameter in order to have a paper trail to show you didn't change the tune.

But like I said, I have an appt today with the dealer for my trans TSB. I'm going to talk with them about pricing the gear install.

Fortunately I bought the car because I really like the new style of the car and I am pretty satisfied with the car as is. I'm still learning about the car on the stock power levels and its still quite fun to drive. If I can't mod the car the way I want at this time its really not a huge deal. The only reason I am considering modding now instead of a couple of years from now is because of how slowly I walked away from that new Civic Si with the K24. I just wish I had found that TSB before the sale so I could have spoken with the service manager before the sale. That was my mistake.

Either way the car is damn fun. Just because I can't personalize it the way I want from a performance standpoint doesn't change the fact that its quite an enjoyable car and as far as "bang for the buck" its not easy for the other makers to compete.

[scorpio333]

Grab one of these shirts and head out to the dealer:

https://dpegb9ebondhq.cloudfront.net/product_photos/289269/ivoid-onshirt_original.png

[Martin0660]

I posted about this a while ago ...

http://www.steelcitystangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23605&highlight=FORD+warranty

[Seer]

the #8 cylinder issue was only on a handful of 5.0's. It was also narrowed down to just a few tuners.

[phillysrt4]

I posted about this a while ago ...

http://www.steelcitystangs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23605&highlight=FORD+warranty

I have a bad short term memory... I blame it on extracurricular activities in university ;)


Grab one of these shirts and head out to the dealer:

https://dpegb9ebondhq.cloudfront.net/product_photos/289269/ivoid-onshirt_original.png

Might not be a bad idea if I had a problem in a few years, but for now I'm good. Had some discussions with the dealership to finally nail down their position on various mods namely gears. IF they are FRPP gears and IF they install them then no problem. CAI that does NOT require a retune no problem. Any other mod/tune that isn't from FRPP they are going to roll over and accept Ford's decision to warranty or void (i.e. void). They claimed that when they hook up a car to IDS that techs/engineers at Ford could theoretically view the information pulled and decline/void warranty.

So the long and the short of it is if I want to do my gears which is what I wanted anyway I can do it without voiding the other aspects of my warranty.

[Seer]

I have a bad short term memory... I blame it on extracurricular activities in university ;)



Might not be a bad idea if I had a problem in a few years, but for now I'm good. Had some discussions with the dealership to finally nail down their position on various mods namely gears. IF they are FRPP gears and IF they install them then no problem. CAI that does NOT require a retune no problem. Any other mod/tune that isn't from FRPP they are going to roll over and accept Ford's decision to warranty or void (i.e. void). They claimed that when they hook up a car to IDS that techs/engineers at Ford could theoretically view the information pulled and decline/void warranty.

So the long and the short of it is if I want to do my gears which is what I wanted anyway I can do it without voiding the other aspects of my warranty.


dealer will only void the power train warranty if they have a reason to scan your pcm and it is tuned.

With that said, stay away from tuners who "give away" a ton of extras to earn your business, theyve been attributed to popping cyl #8.

Go with well known tuners and you wont have an issue.

[Martin0660]

With that said, stay away from tuners who "give away" a ton of extras to earn your business, theyve been attributed to popping cyl #8.

In his case, that would be quite the feat ...

Just add that 600 shot and let it eat ;)

[phillysrt4]

With that said, stay away from tuners who "give away" a ton of extras to earn your business, theyve been attributed to popping cyl #8.

Go with well known tuners and you wont have an issue.

If any tune I put into my car pops cyl #8 I'll give my car away to anyone who wants it. :)


In his case, that would be quite the feat ...

Just add that 600 shot and let it eat ;)

quite the feat indeed!

I want to add the 600 shot but the highest shot I can find is 200 :(

[Martin0660]

Just buy three kits, the big ones, and get them tonight

[phillysrt4]

Just buy three kits, the big ones, and get them tonight

I'm trying but I think i'm going to have to order overnight from Japan

[juice_man_86]

my kit goes to 600, lol

[Seer]

Most of the 5.0's on this board have been tuned my jon lund and are trouble free.

[phillysrt4]

Most of the 5.0's on this board have been tuned my jon lund and are trouble free.

I'll have to figure out a way to shoehorn 2 more cylinders in then :)

[Seer]

I'll have to figure out a way to shoehorn 2 more cylinders in then :)


I know he has a good following with the 3.7 crowd too

[phillysrt4]

I know he has a good following with the 3.7 crowd too

true. I was considering him 2 other online tuners, and my local dyno shop that is an authorized SCT distributor and has two dynojets.

that reminds me I have to call FRPP before they leave.

[Cam99]

Lund is the shit. You know you're good when you piss off Ford Motor Company. Stop ghost cam tuning or smithers shall release the hounds