long tube headers?

[955.0]

I have a cracked header now, I was thinking of getting long tubes and an X pipe instead of the H I have now. Any thoughts:thmbsup:

[coralcoupe1993]

What are you plans for the car?

[955.0]

The only near future Ideas I have is a Trick Flow top end porbally this winter, and a supercharger down the road as in next winter. Thanks for the reply

[coralcoupe1993]

The only near future Ideas I have is a Trick Flow top end porbally this winter, and a supercharger down the road as in next winter. Thanks for the reply


I have a full trickflow set up on my notch and I am running shorties, prochamber and pro dumps.

[955.0]

Do you like the Trickflow top end?

[Silverhatch]

The longtubes will kill your N/A low end. You'll feel a difference up top though, and it will sound badass.

[wick]

I have long tubes on mine. MAC 1 3/4. Motor is mostly stock aside from a cam, rockers and a tiny bit of grinding on the heads and GT-40 intake. It runs good and sounds good from what i have been told.

[bspilner]

i have a set of mac 1 5/8 long tubes modified for a 1" intake spacer if interested

[Silverhatch]

i have a set of mac 1 5/8 long tubes modified for a 1" intake spacer if interested
I have been out of the 5 liter game awhile, but what does the intake spacer have to do with the headers?

[Pure Stock]

The longtubes will kill your N/A low end. You'll feel a difference up top though, and it will sound badass.

Where did ya here that???

[wick]

Where did ya here that???


For the egr. Its on cylinder 3 or 4. A tube runs up to the egr valve from the header tube. He probally either blocked it off or made a longer tube for it.:goodidea:

**Oops, wrong quote.**

[coralcoupe1993]

Do you like the Trickflow top end?


The motor is great! I haven’t had it on the rollers but should do good. Its Trick Flow TW heads, Track heat intake w/ 1" spacer, Steeda #18 cam, rollers, 24# injectors 70 TB, 76 mil MAFS, MSD, and stock rotating assembly.

If I can get house and work projects done and devote a day to it, I should get her to the track.

[955.0]

Thanks for the reply, how much would you want for them?

[Killercanary]

The longtubes will kill your N/A low end. You'll feel a difference up top though, and it will sound badass.



That is the first time I've ever heard that. I don't have time now but I'll post up side by side dyno graphs later showing that just the opposite is true.

[Viper_ed]

That is the first time I've ever heard that. I don't have time now but I'll post up side by side dyno graphs later showing that just the opposite is true.

Hugh, I alsway thought you will lose low end tq. and pick up top end hp.

[coralcoupe1993]

Hugh, I alsway thought you will lose low end tq. and pick up top end hp.

Yea, I heard that too. Maybe it is true with lower power motors such as 4 cyl???

[Pure Stock]

I'd like to take the time to explain how the exhaust side of an engine mimics a bell curve. Using the exhaust as a tuning tool becomes necessary when trying to extract the maximum power from a combo. For example it is possible to lose power from underscavenging the cylinder head chamber and a loss of power could also be had from overscavenging. When over-lap occurs (intake and exhaust valve open) the exhaust system needs to be sucking the spent gases from the chamber and start the intake charge coming into the chamber. If you have a *header* that produces an over-scavenging affect it will pull too much of the intake charge out of the chamber OR if the *header* does not have enough airflow (underscavenging) the residual gases will remain in the chamber. This is where potential power losses could occur. Now not only does the header affect the bell curve. The exhaust valve diameter, exhaust port size, exhaust port shape, and cam duration/ lift will also affect the bell curve.

Getting back to what was stated previously. With a properly chosen exhaust system and taking into consideration the theory above a 1 5/8" long tube header will pick up power across the entire rpm band over a shorty style 1 5/8” header on a stock long blocked application. I have had the opportunity to view shorty vs. longtube 1 5/8” header dyno tests on stock long blocked efi 302’s. From where the test started around (2,000 rpm) to the cut off point (5,500 rpm) the avg. power increased with the longtubes.

To illustrate how easily one can over shoot or under shoot on header size I will be assessing three different sizes of longtube headers on a chassis dyno in the future to determine what size fits my application i.e., produces the most avg. power in the useable rpm range.

[955.0]

I'd like to take the time to explain how the exhaust side of an engine mimics a bell curve. Using the exhaust as a tuning tool becomes necessary when trying to extract the maximum power from a combo. For example it is possible to lose power from underscavenging the cylinder head chamber and a loss of power could also be had from overscavenging. When over-lap occurs (intake and exhaust valve open) the exhaust system needs to be sucking the spent gases from the chamber and start the intake charge coming into the chamber. If you have a *header* that produces an over-scavenging affect it will pull too much of the intake charge out of the chamber OR if the *header* does not have enough airflow (underscavenging) the residual gases will remain in the chamber. This is where potential power losses could occur. Now not only does the header affect the bell curve. The exhaust valve diameter, exhaust port size, exhaust port shape, and cam duration/ lift will also affect the bell curve.

Getting back to what was stated previously. With a properly chosen exhaust system and taking into consideration the theory above a 1 5/8" long tube header will pick up power across the entire rpm band over a shorty style 1 5/8” header on a stock long blocked application. I have had the opportunity to view shorty vs. longtube 1 5/8” header dyno tests on stock long blocked efi 302’s. From where the test started around (2,000 rpm) to the cut off point (5,500 rpm) the avg. power increased with the longtubes.

To illustrate how easily one can over shoot or under shoot on header size I will be assessing three different sizes of longtube headers on a chassis dyno in the future to determine what size fits my application i.e., produces the most avg. power in the useable rpm range.

I thank you for all the valuable information, As I sit here today my engine is stock, you said the long tube headers would make more power on a stock engine. This winter I was going to get a Trickflow top end do you think The long tube headers would make more power with the trickflow setup? One more thing Now I'm running a BBK off road H pipe I'll need a different mid pipe do you think I would be better off with the H or the X. Thank you

[Pure Stock]

I thank you for all the valuable information, As I sit here today my engine is stock, you said the long tube headers would make more power on a stock engine. This winter I was going to get a Trickflow top end do you think The long tube headers would make more power with the trickflow setup? One more thing Now I'm running a BBK off road H pipe I'll need a different mid pipe do you think I would be better off with the H or the X. Thank you


A couple of questions first off:

1. Primary useage of 5.0L (street, street and strip, track only)
2. Will an increase in c.i.d. be in the near future or will you retain the stock short block?
3. Any power/E.T./MPH goals?
4. Will there be a power adder introduced into the combo anytime soon?

[955.0]

A couple of questions first off:

1. Primary useage of 5.0L (street, street and strip, track only)
2. Will an increase in c.i.d. be in the near future or will you retain the stock short block?
3. Any power/E.T./MPH goals?
4. Will there be a power adder introduced into the combo anytime soon?

It's my summer car so I would say Street strip

I'm planning on keeping the stock block.

No certain goals, but time will tell.

Probally a supercharger but not untill next winter.

Thank you for all your help.

[bspilner]

$125 for the headers i also have 94-95 ported cobra intake and 1" spacer, steeda #19 cam designed for the 94-95 computer; 24# injectors and a set of power heads if interested (www.powerheads.com (http://www.powerheads.com)) this combo made an awesome street motor...

PS. there is a fitting on # 3 tube that connects to the egr valve that was extended 1" because of the spacer

[955.0]

$125 for the headers i also have 94-95 ported cobra intake and 1" spacer, steeda #19 cam designed for the 94-95 computer; 24# injectors and a set of power heads if interested (www.powerheads.com (http://www.powerheads.com)) this combo made an awesome street motor...

PS. there is a fitting on # 3 tube that connects to the egr valve that was extended 1" because of the spacer

Your in Fox Chaple I see, I get down that way pretty often so next time I'm coming down I let you know and I'll check them out. Thanks

[Pure Stock]

It's my summer car so I would say Street strip

I'm planning on keeping the stock block.

No certain goals, but time will tell.

Probally a supercharger but not untill next winter.

Thank you for all your help.


You have some options as far as Twisted Wedges are concerned. You could run the 170 cc intake runner versions. (out of the box versions) or step up to the 185 cc intake runner versions. Cam selection will most likely be more critical since you have a 1995 version. (I have a (94-95) PIH harness with a computer -A9L) for sale that would permit you to use a fox body ECM in your fox-4) I believe the problem with cam selection in those years revolved around lobe seperation angle.

The TFS top end package that has the stage 1 cam and street heat intake produces solid gains over the factory h/c/i. Close to 300 RWHP with a manual trans usually can be had.

As far as headers go, I'll recommend a 1 5/8" primary with 2 1/2" collectors for what you have described you'd like to do. I have not done any testing to validate whether an H or X generates more power. You do see a lot of X's on max effort projects though.

[Viper_ed]

Whoever thought Warren Johnson was the "Professor" is dead wrong! Joe has taken his title! :bowing:

[Silverhatch]

Where did ya here that???

On my '95 non-smog, TF heads, ported cobra, B3 cam, stock block, 1 5/8 Lt killed my lowend until the blower was added. Made alot of noise though.

[Pure Stock]

On my '95 non-smog, TF heads, ported cobra, B3 cam, stock block, 1 5/8 Lt killed my lowend until the blower was added. Made alot of noise though.

Did ya ever think runnin' a healthy blower cam without the blower in a heavy ass vert could have deteriorated the bottom end?? Now, I could see if the primary diameter was severly mis-matched, but 1 5/8", c'mon. Something else was off somewhere else and I'm gonna have to disagree that a 1 5/8" longtube killed the low end.

[bspilner]

I agree, long tubes are the way to go!

[coralcoupe1993]

What long tubes can be ran on that or foxes without having to mess with steering shafts?????:goodidea:

[Pure Stock]

What long tubes can be ran on that or foxes without having to mess with steering shafts?????:goodidea:

MAC 1 5/8" L.T. worked on my fox without steering shaft removal/mods. It's a whole different ball game when you have a Lakewood scattershield though.

[coralcoupe1993]

$125 for the headers i also have 94-95 ported cobra intake and 1" spacer, steeda #19 cam designed for the 94-95 computer; 24# injectors and a set of power heads if interested (www.powerheads.com (http://www.powerheads.com)) this combo made an awesome street motor...

PS. there is a fitting on # 3 tube that connects to the egr valve that was extended 1" because of the spacer


The #19 cam is like the #18 with a wider lob seperation for the 94-95 computer. :thmbsup:

[Silverhatch]

Did ya ever think runnin' a healthy blower cam without the blower in a heavy ass vert could have deteriorated the bottom end?? Now, I could see if the primary diameter was severly mis-matched, but 1 5/8", c'mon. Something else was off somewhere else and I'm gonna have to disagree that a 1 5/8" longtube killed the low end.

I say go for the LTs with an all stock bottom end. Hell, run dumps right after them, that has to flow more right? Horsepower would be way up, who needs torque anyway. Maybe you can give us your total layout so we can all run 10.70 on a HCI combo with a untouched 302 block. :laughing: I can also sell you the Charleroi/ Monessen bridge and then maybe make it a toll bridge, its going cheap!

[Pure Stock]

I say go for the LTs with an all stock bottom end. Hell, run dumps right after them, that has to flow more right? Horsepower would be way up, who needs torque anyway. Maybe you can give us your total layout so we can all run 10.70 on a HCI combo with a untouched 302 block. :laughing: I can also sell you the Charleroi/ Monessen bridge and then maybe make it a toll bridge, its going cheap!

Yo the spreading of MIS-information is a capital crime on some Ford sites. In your case you'd be doing 2 life sentences with the bullshit your shoutin'. Get some credability, then talk some shit to me.

[gmkillr]

Yo the spreading of MIS-information is a capital crime on some Ford sites. In your case you'd be doing 2 life sentences with the bullshit your shoutin'. Get some credability, then talk some shit to me.



Im gonna have to jump in here and agree w/ Joe. This info is NOT true!!!
Dont spread internet B.S. Only state what you have 1st. hand experience with!!:goodidea:

[Killercanary]

Here's the comparison I refered to earlier. The 304rwhp is my graph and I run FMS shorty unequal lengths, the other is another stangnet member's car. Its not a back to back on the same car, but these are the results I've always seen when comparing shorties to longtubes.


I was doing a bit of research and I stumbled upon these combos

Thought ya'll might like to S E E something I've been saying :D

These FTI AFR Edel combos are very similar EXCEPT for the headers

Now Mr. C likes to keep his specs on the QT ;)
but
I'm sure I won't be doing anything wrong when I say I've seen others :)

True ... they are all different
but
They don't seem to be that much different

IMHO ... I feel the difference you see between these two combos :eek:
Its mostly due the the header choice ;)

If you got Q's or comments :shrug: ... feel to let em rip :rlaugh:

Here is the hard data :D

http://www.geocities.com/final_5_0/temps/sht_lt_data1.jpg

Here they are! ... Side by Side :D

Grady

http://www.geocities.com/final_5_0/temps/sht_lt_chart1.jpg

[Pure Stock]

I say go for the LTs with an all stock bottom end. Hell, run dumps right after them, that has to flow more right? Horsepower would be way up, who needs torque anyway. Maybe you can give us your total layout so we can all run 10.70 on a HCI combo with a untouched 302 block. :laughing: I can also sell you the Charleroi/ Monessen bridge and then maybe make it a toll bridge, its going cheap!

Well, that's pretty cute. Your gonna sell me a bridge. Are you implying I'm some kind of dumbass??? I don't need to share a gat dayum thing about my combo. I provided this gentleman with some factual information about exhaust characteristics. Our statements were opposite. So my disagreement with your *opinion* grants you the right to make slight of what I accomplished.?.? No skin off my back though. I do not frequent these forums to boast about what I have done, on the contrary, I try to provide people with insight from what I have gathered through testing and what I have discovered through research (read: objective testing.) I could give a rat's ass if someone disagrees with my opinion or if they subscribe to what I have/will state. Bottom line is factual data will always prevail over seat of the pants thrill.

[One Sweet Day]

Well, that's pretty cute. Your gonna sell me a bridge. Are you implying I'm some kind of dumbass??? I don't need to share a gat dayum thing about my combo. I provided this gentleman with some factual information about exhaust characteristics. Our statements were opposite. So my disagreement with your *opinion* grants you the right to make slight of what I accomplished.?.? No skin off my back though. I do not frequent these forums to boast about what I have done, on the contrary, I try to provide people with insight from what I have gathered through testing and what I have discovered through research (read: objective testing.) I could give a rat's ass if someone disagrees with my opinion or if they subscribe to what I have/will state. Bottom line is factual data will always prevail over seat of the pants thrill.
well said

[coralcoupe1993]

Great thread! Passion about power!

[955.0]

MAC 1 5/8" L.T. worked on my fox without steering shaft removal/mods. It's a whole different ball game when you have a Lakewood scattershield though.


Thats something I forgot to mention I have a Tremec with a Lakewould Blow Proof bellhousing and Lakewood scattershield. Will this keep me from running long tubes?

[955.0]

Here's the comparison I refered to earlier. The 304rwhp is my graph and I run FMS shorty unequal lengths, the other is another stangnet member's car. Its not a back to back on the same car, but these are the results I've always seen when comparing shorties to longtubes.
Can't argue with that!:awsome:

[Pure Stock]

Thats something I forgot to mention I have a Tremec with a Lakewould Blow Proof bellhousing and Lakewood scattershield. Will this keep me from running long tubes?

Not sure about the spacing/clearance with the primaries on the SN-95's. With the fox body and the MAC 1 5/8" headers (manual trans headers) some grinding was required on my application where the scattershield bumps out to accomodate the starter mounting point. Used a 4 1/2" grinder to alleviate interference. It's nothing to be intimidated by though.

[955.0]

Not sure about the spacing/clearance with the primaries on the SN-95's. With the fox body and the MAC 1 5/8" headers (manual trans headers) some grinding was required on my application where the scattershield bumps out to accomodate the starter mounting point. Used a 4 1/2" grinder to alleviate interference. It's nothing to be intimidated by though.

When I put the tranny and all in, I had to grind a little out In the starter bump to get my Mid pipe to clear.

[wick]

well said


Follower.

[One Sweet Day]

Follower.
how so?

[Silverhatch]

Yo the spreading of MIS-information is a capital crime on some Ford sites. In your case you'd be doing 2 life sentences with the bullshit your shoutin'. Get some credability, then talk some shit to me.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with what I had posted. In my case I know that the car performed worse after longtubes were added to the mix. Case closed. The car definately felt slower on the bottom end after. No, I didn't dyno the car after every mod. What I disliked was the "attitude" in which you disagreed. Being that you didn't ride in the car on a before ride, you have no "information" on how it felt prior. If anyone noticed it didn't get ugly until the second post you made about mine bustin' on my own experience, after I simply stated what was done to the car. Maybe you were havin' a bad day, or just chalk it up to your regular sarcasticness towards me here and offline. I guess were not as good of friends as I once thought. This is not the place to air these stupid quirks on Lou's site. 955, I apologize that this thread went to this extent.

[coralcoupe1993]

Sooooo...... Should I put long tubes on the notch?

[wick]

how so?


Because no matter what it is or who it is, you always agree. It can be an argument about dog shit, and you would agree.:goodidea:

[wick]

Sooooo...... Should I put long tubes on the notch?


Hell yeah!!!!!!!

[One Sweet Day]

Because no matter what it is or who it is, you always agree. It can be an argument about dog shit, and you would agree.:goodidea:
not even close to being true. If I don't agree, I don't post. If I don't know, I don't post. I have disagreed on here, and I have had posts deleted on here. I just happen to think that was a well said statement.

[coralcoupe1993]

Hell yeah!!!!!!!

I know.... Soon. lol. $$$$$$

[fork5o]

very good thread!
i have mac shortys that came on it but they look like crap and i was thinking about gettin them coated. after reading this i might just dump em and go with long tubes when the time comes. :goodidea:

[Domination]

Header tech for dummies:

The shorter the tube, the more bias to higher RPM's and visa versa.

[Pure Stock]

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with what I had posted. In my case I know that the car performed worse after longtubes were added to the mix. Case closed. The car definately felt slower on the bottom end after. No, I didn't dyno the car after every mod. What I disliked was the "attitude" in which you disagreed. Being that you didn't ride in the car on a before ride, you have no "information" on how it felt prior. If anyone noticed it didn't get ugly until the second post you made about mine bustin' on my own experience, after I simply stated what was done to the car. Maybe you were havin' a bad day, or just chalk it up to your regular sarcasticness towards me here and offline. I guess were not as good of friends as I once thought. This is not the place to air these stupid quirks on Lou's site. 955, I apologize that this thread went to this extent.



I was actually having a great day. Your non-documented information has absolutely no validity behind it. Numerous people chimed in providing accurate information that was completely opposite to your claim. A long tube header that is matched accordingly to the rest of the combo will not deteriorate the bottom end. In fact, the complete opposite is true. And I agree this is not the place to air stupid quirks, so stop misleading people with inacurate information.

[wht88cpe]

[quote=Pure Stock;51463]Well, that's pretty cute. Your gonna sell me a bridge. Are you implying I'm some kind of dumbass???

Pure Stock- Just my .02 here but I think your comments to luxurysportscar - "Where did ya here that" and "Did ya ever think runnin' a healthly blower cam without the blower in a heavy ass vert could have deteriorated the bottom end? ..... c'mon" - might have been better put. They do have a certain tone to them as if the implication is the other way around.

At 10.7 N/A I'm certainly interested in hearing what knowledge you choose to share. But that seat of the pants feel works for me too. I'll take it all in and (maybe) sort it out down the road- it's why I joined this site. It'll take me longer, I'm older now, hopefully one day ...............

[coralcoupe1993]

very good thread!
i have mac shortys that came on it but they look like crap and i was thinking about gettin them coated. after reading this i might just dump em and go with long tubes when the time comes. :goodidea:


Dont do it!!!! I did that with my MAC and they are still pitting. They have been out outside of that....they are 8 years old.

[Silverhatch]

Here ya' go 955, 5.0 did a LT, ST test, showing that the torque does fall off in the late low range. Not much, but some. I'm sure there are contradicting tests. You're either really anal or better be running some pretty fast times to squabble over -/+ 5 horses. I really didn't search for any more "documented" proof. You're big enough to make a good decision. In all honesty, If you plan on bigger mods, LTs are the way to go. Your car will sound like a Cup car! Good luck!


http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html