2nd Debate debate

**RMB427R** · 10-08-2008, 10:31 PM

Naughty librarian........now you're talkin!!

Ron..

**MBH** · 10-08-2008, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by stieny

Privatization deals with social security.

Meaning what? Explain yourself in a paragraph, not just a sentence. Some facts would be nice.

And no I'm not voting for him on taxes alone, I agree with a good amount of his policies - although not all of them. I'm a capitalist, not a communist.

**mr4teth** · 10-08-2008, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by stieny

There are too many idiots out there already that own a gun and think they can shoot whatever they want to.

You mean criminals?

Take guns away from law abiding citizens these idiots you speak of will have no fear of using their illegal guns whenever on whomever!

Do you even understand the constitution and why you and I have the right to bare arms? Our founding fathers wrote this provision not only to protect ourselves from our enemies but also to protect ourselves from our government in the event they turned against us.

**Troll** · 10-08-2008, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by 2001GTTT

lmao. You offered, not me.

Im interested, I just don't like either person, I didn't register cause i wouldn't have voted anyway.

When I was your age, I had a friend who called me "grandpa" because I got on his ass to register. I used to say, "When somebody tells you what you're allowed to eat for breakfast, you'll wish you had voted."

Seems stupid, right? Governor Bloomberg / NY state just had a law passed that in the city limits of NY city, you cannot cook with or serve certain types of oil that contain so much fat or WHATEVER.

So the governor is telling his peeps what they can and cannot eat. This is taking it way toooo faaar.

**stieny** · 10-08-2008, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by MBH

Meaning what? Explain yourself in a paragraph, not just a sentence. Some facts would be nice.

And no I'm not voting for him on taxes alone, I agree with a good amount of his policies - although not all of them. I'm a capitalist, not a communist.

The privatization act would allow you to take the percent that you kick into social security now and invest in the stock market instead. That is not going to fix social security. Its already a failing system as it is.

What do you want me to say to your tax post? Cudo's to you for posting that. If your sources are correct (I don't care enough to follow your links) then what can I say? Facts are facts. But I don't like McCain, his support to Bush or his policies.

I do appreciate you knowing what you're talking about. I don't care who people vote for, I just like to see that they have good reasons to vote the way they do. Seems like you do.

**mr4teth** · 10-08-2008, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by stieny

What do you want me to say to your tax post? Cudo's to you for posting that. If your sources are correct (I don't care enough to follow your links) then what can I say? Facts are facts. But I don't like McCain, his support to Bush or his policies.

My friend you need to stop watching TV and start doing your own research! John McCain is NOT George Bush!

**MBH** · 10-08-2008, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by stieny

The privatization act would allow you to take the percent that you kick into social security now and invest in the stock market instead. That is not going to fix social security. Its already a failing system as it is.

What do you want me to say to your tax post? Cudo's to you for posting that. If your sources are correct (I don't care enough to follow your links) then what can I say? Facts are facts. But I don't like McCain, his support to Bush or his policies.

I do appreciate you knowing what you're talking about. I don't care who people vote for, I just like to see that they have good reasons to vote the way they do. Seems like you do.

Damn it, thats not what I was hoping for. I was hoping for something that didn't make sense, because by the time it rolls around for me I probably won't get it - hence my hard stance on the taxes!!

Regarding this:
http://www.steelcitystangs.com/forum...ad.php?t=11702 (The sources are all legitimate and check out, I wouldn't post up bullshit - and I actually get quite annoyed with the random lies that come out and get passed around in emails etc.)

I'd like to know why you think that atrocity of a tax plan that Obama is going to go for is going to be good for the country. Small businesses will close, employers will cut costs to tighten up their business because they're struggling. The new "change" will be known as "unemployment" and "poverty."

In my greedy little eyes, taxes are the fundamentals of our government. It is the lifeblood of our countries messed up politics. To put it simply, our country most certainly is NOT undertaxed, but some of the country certainly is undermotivated. I'm not saying that letting the rich buy up the country is the answer to that, but crushing them EVEN MORE with overbearring taxes is NOT the answer unlike what a lot of, what I imagine must be, simple people come up with.

**MBH** · 10-08-2008, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by mr4teth

My friend you need to stop watching TV and start doing your own research! John McCain is NOT George Bush!

Well he agreed with him in one very critical aspect: that Fanny Mae and Freddy Mack needed to be stopped, yet the dems (Obama included) pushed it through.

If he doesn't know about the link between clinton, the dems and the sub prime mortgages then he really should take the chance to educate himself.

Here is a video that will help say all the words that I can't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4

edit: here is another one for the democrats to swallow. I believe its called "Congress"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5z9l...d=event_313445

**mr4teth** · 10-08-2008, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by MBH

Well he agreed with him in one very critical aspect: that Fanny Mae and Freddy Mack needed to be stopped, yet the dems (Obama included) pushed it through.

If he doesn't know about the link between clinton, the dems and the sub prime mortgages then he really should take the chance to educate himself.

Here is a video that will help say all the words that I can't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RZVw3no2A4

Even Hollywood's liberal spokesperson Alec Baldwin agrees!

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/10/04/baldwin-blames-financial-crisis-clinton-dems-barney-frank

**Slow01GT** · 10-08-2008, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by mr4teth

You mean criminals?

Take guns away from law abiding citizens these idiots you speak of will have no fear of using their illegal guns whenever on whomever!

Do you even understand the constitution and why you and I have the right to bare arms? Our founding fathers wrote this provision not only to protect ourselves from our enemies but also to protect ourselves from our government in the event they turned against us.

I said this in another recent thread and I will say it here again. I have no problem with responsible citizens owning guns for protection and even owning them just to shoot on the weekends. I just think that tighter gun control laws for the general publics safety is never a bad thing. It is a big jump to say Obama wants to take away all rights to own guns since thats not the case at all. Also, Bo this is the first time I have seen all that information on the tax plans and it seems you def did your research on the subject. I also cannot argue those facts but policies can always be revised so I'm going to follow it more closely. I will still be voting for Obama though since I take the liberal mindset on things like abortion and the war in Iraq.

**MBH** · 10-08-2008, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Slow01GT

Also, Bo this is the first time I have seen all that information on the tax plans and it seems you def did your research on the subject. I also cannot argue those facts but policies can always be revised so I'm going to follow it more closely. I will still be voting for Obama though since I take the liberal mindset on things like abortion and the war in Iraq.

I don't think Roe v Wade is in jeopardy. I might be a Catholic, but I'm pro choice and I think sex education is important for kids to have.

There are lots of issues when election comes around, however taxes affect everyone and its the most involvement that any of us will ever have with the government.

The messed up thing is that most people have never seen that information, as significant as it is!

**Twin01cobra** · 10-09-2008, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by Slow01GT

I said this in another recent thread and I will say it here again. I have no problem with responsible citizens owning guns for protection and even owning them just to shoot on the weekends. I just think that tighter gun control laws for the general publics safety is never a bad thing. It is a big jump to say Obama wants to take away all rights to own guns since thats not the case at all. Also, Bo this is the first time I have seen all that information on the tax plans and it seems you def did your research on the subject. I also cannot argue those facts but policies can always be revised so I'm going to follow it more closely. I will still be voting for Obama though since I take the liberal mindset on things like abortion and the war in Iraq.

If you would like to see where he stands on your right to own guns you can read it for yourself. We may still be allowed to own a muzzle loader when he's done.
http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/...un_Control.htm

**Slow01GT** · 10-09-2008, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Twin01cobra

If you would like to see where he stands on your right to own guns you can read it for yourself. We may still be allowed to own a muzzle loader when he's done.
http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/...un_Control.htm

To be fair I did read that and this is what I came up with.

"Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions."

"We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets."

I still fail to see where he will take away your right own a gun. Unless your a dangerous person (and I have met and talked to you back in the day so I know your not) I don't see how it will affect you and those responsible enough to own a firearm.

**Twin01cobra** · 10-09-2008, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Slow01GT

To be fair I did read that and this is what I came up with.

"Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it's important for us to recognize that we've got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people's traditions."

"We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets."

I still fail to see where he will take away your right own a gun. Unless your a dangerous person (and I have met and talked to you back in the day so I know your not) I don't see how it will affect you and those responsible enough to own a firearm.

Here's two right here, now if this does'nt mean banning guns I don't know what does.

Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:
35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes

Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

**MBH** · 10-09-2008, 12:57 AM

Strictly in the hypothetical - it would be interesting to see what kind of things would happen after the banning of hand guns. I bet tazers get remarkably lethal. Back the weaponized americans into a corner and I guarantee you get some interesting ways out. Hell, I could make a rail gun in my basement if I wanted.

**Slow01GT** · 10-09-2008, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Twin01cobra

Here's two right here, now if this does'nt mean banning guns I don't know what does.

Actually, Obama's writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:
35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes

Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

I did read that also but I also read the date on those documents. 1996 and 1998. I think that Obama is a smart enough individual to realize that this approach would not go over well with the american population, and rightfully so. That is why as of this year he only wants to tighten up gun control laws, which I think is a good idea. We could argue both sides all night long but in the end your gonna have your opinion and I'll have mine, and I think we are both set in what we think.

**Rodeheaver's** · 10-09-2008, 01:11 AM

First off when did banning anything really work??? they banned liquor in the 1920s, oww you couldnt find a drop of it anywere...LOL, second, banning anything is flawed, the only reason to ban something is to try and change the people or the law, you cant change the people!!! the people have to change themselves, if we banned guns, the only people who had them would be the criminals!!! and when they got caught with a banned gun, becuase the system is so liberal, they would prob only get a fine or a 30 day hit in jail, this would stop nobody bad from carrying a gun. it is stupid, people dont want to say be a better person or pay for it.. they want to say somebody else made you a bad person and we want to blame them, its not your fault you killed that guy, its the gun companys fault, its not our fault you are fat, lets sue Mcdonalds... Liberal thinking!!! It is gonna be the down fall of this country

**Grimmy73** · 10-09-2008, 02:14 AM

Did anyone else watch those two linked videos MBH posted ?

Those were very educational, thanks for posting those. I think each one took me about 30 mins to watch from all hitting pause every other frame, but it was an hour well spent.

**Troll** · 10-09-2008, 01:18 PM

I can't wait to have a civil war with the liberals.

We got the guns.
We got the land.
We got the money.
We got the people ('cause we don't abort our babies)

Libs got what??? civil rights and entitlements.

We win.

Good Day !

**MBH** · 10-09-2008, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Grimmy73

Did anyone else watch those two linked videos MBH posted ?

Those were very educational, thanks for posting those. I think each one took me about 30 mins to watch from all hitting pause every other frame, but it was an hour well spent.

Thanks for watching those, and you're right - there is SO much information packed in them its almost impossible to get it if you just let it play.

I made my girlfriend (big liberal) watch them and she was not at all believing anything that she saw. She said that oh look how they highlight parts from two different sections of that page to make a sentence etc. So I paused it, let her read it, and asked her if they didn't do a good job of paraphrasing the whole page so that it could fit in the video. It's really a heartbreaker when you believe that your candidate is a gift from God, and then you read some FACTS about their history.

She also HATES Palin. I joked with her that I hope she looks half as good when she is her age, so I don't think I won any points on that one hahaha.

But its ridiculous that everyone compares Obama to Palin. Its almost like he's a second rate presidential candidate just to make him sound good.

experience will lend itself to understanding in the office, so lets humor the obama and palin comparrison.
Palin.......................................... vs....................................... Obama
-Mayor............................................. ...............................-never run a city
-Governor.......................................... ...............................-never run a state
-Business owner (commercial fishing)....................................-never owned or run a business
.................................................. ...................................-should never run a country

BTW, if anybody would like to add anything feel free.