Motorcycle Talk

[phillysrt4]

Yes that was entertaining ....

I say pictures are worth 1000 words ....

The 1000 words I get out of this are the "japs" adapted to what the market wants in a cruiser. Unless you consider silly little nitpicking things like using whitewall tires "copying" harley. Isn't that like saying the "Japs" completely copy ford if they choose a similar blue color for paint?

Even the engine isn't "copying" harley. The cruiser market likes the torque that can be produced by v-twin engines, so the japanese develop one (or in the case of Suzuki, refine an already existing one they used in their v-twin sportbike campaign). But UNLIKE harley, the one you pictured uses a 90 degree design which has lower vibration due to the way harmonics work in 90 degree twins. If they wanted to "copy" harley, they would have used a vtwin with a narrower separation. Again, a response to what the market wants but not "copying" harley.

Speaking of pictures being worth 1000 words, I find it interesting that even in the 1960, the "japs" figured out that inverted forks work really well, something the 1960's harley you posted didn't have. But if you go to the harley website and look at the 2011 models its amazing how many of them use upside down forks now. The "japs" were also putting fuel injection on their bikes in the 2000's, something that Harley now does on many of their models.

But yes, it's the "japs" that are clearly copying harley.

[phillysrt4]

Maybe I'm just a dumb consumer, but I really don't like metric cruisers. I don't argue that in nearly every way they are probably superior to h-d,(except resale value) but I guess I'm just a purist. After doing the softail route, when the time comes I have free time again, I'll buy a H-D bagger and be happy to pay for a harley.

That's not what I'm saying. There are people who want an M3 over the new GT 5.0 even though they share similar performance but the M3 costs more. That's up to them. Only the buyer has to be happy with what they bought, no one else. Same thing with bikes. If you want to buy an HD over something metric for whatever reason go for it.

What I am addressing is the whole "ZOMG TEH JAPZ COPIED HARLEY!!1!one!1!11lim(x->0)sin(x)/x!1!!!1" rhetoric. IMO its untrue at best, a clear case of HD propaganda at worst.

[phillysrt4]

After a short trip to Z&M this afternoon and getting up close and personal with some of the "new" models, I'll keep the Buell for a while... maybe trade it on a CB1000R if they ever bring it to the states!!!

Its available in Canada! :) come up and get one Only 13,999 CAD for the version with ABS

[Troll]

what I get from those pix is that it took HD 100+ years to figure out what the customers wants and it only took the Japs 40.

now, if you read the press release about that Fury, it does have a 52* V-twin with a single-pin crankshaft. that is clearly copying the sound of the evolution engine.

[Troll]

Its available in Canada! :) come up and get one

after further review on my end, that bike is a heavy pig. dry weight is 469lbs. that's crazy. my Buell, full of gas and other fluids is 450lbs tops.

how does a single-sided swingarm and no fairing ADD 70lbs to the CBR RR ?

[phillysrt4]

speaking of cool bikes... look whats coming to Canada!!!

http://world.honda.com/CBR250R/index.html

[phillysrt4]

what I get from those pix is that it took HD 100+ years to figure out what the customers wants and it only took the Japs 40.

now, if you read the press release about that Fury, it does have a 52* V-twin with a single-pin crankshaft. that is clearly copying the sound of the evolution engine.

LOL @ the first sentence.

One company, on one model, coming out for this year, does not "the japs" copying HD make.

[phillysrt4]

after further review on my end, that bike is a heavy pig. dry weight is 469lbs. that's crazy. my Buell, full of gas and other fluids is 450lbs tops.

how does a single-sided swingarm and no fairing ADD 70lbs to the CBR RR ?

LOL! true... were you looking at the ABS version?

[scott5]

When were the first ever "jap" motorcycles made?

[mr4teth]

That's not what I'm saying. There are people who want an M3 over the new GT 5.0 even though they share similar performance but the M3 costs more. That's up to them. Only the buyer has to be happy with what they bought, no one else. Same thing with bikes. If you want to buy an HD over something metric for whatever reason go for it.

What I am addressing is the whole "ZOMG TEH JAPZ COPIED HARLEY!!1!one!1!11lim(x->0)sin(x)/x!1!!!1" rhetoric. IMO its untrue at best, a clear case of HD propaganda at worst.

Please remove your head from the rice bowl ......


I'll give you Japanese manufactures are great at taking someone's original design and improving it. Hell they been doing this for years in every segment ... car, TV's, motorcycles, lawn mowers, power tools, car parts ..... ect ect ect .... But anyone with half a brain knows the truth about Japanese motorcycle manufactures trying to invade the HD market by knocking off the HD "style"! For Gods sake they even ripped off HD's marketing campaigns!

Question for you are you ... Are you a Canadian citizen or an American living on Canada?

[Troll]

early 1950's. after we blowed up Nagasaki and Hiroshima with H-bombs to end WWII, we then turned around and gave Japan like a jazillion dollars to rebuild, which they did.

[mr4teth]

Japanese were making Rickshaws when harley davidson frist started building motorbikes

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Troll]

If you have Discovery's HD Theater, they have a show called Twist the Throttle. It hasn't been on much this year, but last year they showcased the 4 major Japanese companies. 1 hour each showing who, where, when, why and how. pretty cool shows. I've also seen MV Augusta, Ducati, Aprilia, Triumph and a few others on that show.

[phillysrt4]

I'll give you Japanese manufactures are great at taking someone's original design and improving it. Hell they been doing this for years in every segment ... car, TV's, motorcycles, lawn mowers, power tools, car parts ..... ect ect ect ....

and now, with fuel injection, more than 2 valves per cylinder, liquid cooling, and inverted forks, HD is returning the favor

But anyone with half a brain knows the truth about Japanese motorcycle manufactures trying to invade the HD market by knocking off the HD "style"!

Knocking off the HD "style"? You mean with whitewall tires and changing a design they've had since the 60's? LOL....

EDIT - when the Japanese "invaded" the US market in the 60's, they were too busy racing, learning from their mistakes, and innovating to "copy" harley "style". By the time the early 80's rolled around, they had no need to copy harley "style" because their performance was so far ahead of anything HD had that they only way Harley could compete was to cry to the gov't for a tariff. But this is a digression from the whole "Japs copy Harley" myth so I'll leave it at that.

EDIT2- interesting what you decided to quote from me (and ignoring my post clearly showing that their bikes are not HD copies) and now fall back to how they copy HD "style"... perhaps a tacit admission that the japs didnt copy from the copy of an Indian...erm... HD? :)

Question for you are you ... Are you a Canadian citizen or an American living on Canada?

Other than the sure to be coming ad hominem attack, what does my citizenship/nationality have to do with the "Japs copy HD" myth?

[phillysrt4]

Japanese were making Rickshaws when harley davidson frist started building motorbikes

and when the japanese decided to make motorcyles, there were FAR more players than HD from which to draw inspiration.

[scott5]

early 1950's. after we blowed up Nagasaki and Hiroshima with H-bombs to end WWII, we then turned around and gave Japan like a jazillion dollars to rebuild, which they did.

Doesn't this mean that the "jap" motorcycles are in fact a copy in themselves as hd was building bikes 40 sum years before thbey even knew how to build a motorcycle? They may be different in many ways but bare bones down to it they are all the same. Franme, motor, wheel, tires, etc.

By the way no way I'm hating on the jap bikes as I owned many including 3 dirtbikes at one time

[phillysrt4]

Doesn't this mean that the "jap" motorcycles are in fact a copy in themselves as hd was building bikes 40 sum years before thbey even knew how to build a motorcycle? They may be different in many ways but bare bones down to it they are all the same. Franme, motor, wheel, tires, etc.

By the way no way I'm hating on the jap bikes as I owned many including 3 dirtbikes at one time

When someone says that the japs "copy" Harley, it gives the impression that there was no innovation, no R&D, no attempts to derive something for themselves. With how much racing the japanese companies have done since the 60's when they started competing on the international scene in earnest, with how much they have innovated to gain market share, and with how many improvements they've made in engineering and design quality, no one with half a brain can say that from an engineering point of view the Japanese have copied HD.

as for copying "styling", companies do that all the time based on what the customer wants. IIRC, Ford with their mustang was one of the first to do their "retro" styling. How come I never see anyone complaining that dodge and GM copy Ford? Because its ludicrous.... about as ludicrous as saying the japs copy harley.

[phillysrt4]

When were the first ever "jap" motorcycles made?

Arguably, it was 1948, when Honda Motor Co. Ltd is incorporated. Soichiro Honda and Takeo Fujisawa were the founders.

[mr4teth]

and now, with fuel injection, more than 2 valves per cylinder, liquid cooling, and inverted forks, HD is returning the favor



Knocking off the HD "style"? You mean with whitewall tires and changing a design they've had since the 60's? LOL....

EDIT - when the Japanese "invaded" the US market in the 60's, they were too busy racing, learning from their mistakes, and innovating to "copy" harley "style". By the time the early 80's rolled around, they had no need to copy harley "style" because their performance was so far ahead of anything HD had that they only way Harley could compete was to cry to the gov't for a tariff. But this is a digression from the whole "Japs copy Harley" myth so I'll leave it at that.

EDIT2- interesting what you decided to quote from me (and ignoring my post clearly showing that their bikes are not HD copies) and now fall back to how they copy HD "style"... perhaps a tacit admission that the japs didnt copy from the copy of an Indian...erm... HD? :)



Other than the sure to be coming ad hominem attack, what does my citizenship/nationality have to do with the "Japs copy HD" myth?

No myth just the truth my friend. Continuing this conversation is pointless as you are obviously blind to the truth. Lets just agree to disagree and move on.

In regards to my question about your citizenship: I'm trying to understand you as a person. Most American's take a lot of pride in our countries accomplishments and history. Companies like Ford and HD (just 2 examples) are revered as they have long enriched histories with the development of our country. Typical when I encounter people such as yourself who are so anti HD there's a reason and I just trying to connect the dots.

[Troll]

Companies like Ford and HD (just 2 examples) are revered as they have long enriched histories with the development of our country.

I beg to differ about these two companies and I am not anti-HD. I am pro-motorcycle.

Ford is not cramming a 221ci V8 L-Head motor rated at 65HP down our throats and telling us that the below image is the "American" way of life. No, the Japs came to this country with small cars in the 60's that were garbage, but they were cheap and had great gas mileage. Guess who copied who there? Yes, Ford still has a few hotrod models, but even they have made major strides in horsepower, efficiencies and they've changed almost yearly to meet the demands of the market. Ford has definitely kept up with the competitive market that the Japs initiated.

HD has said, this is our bike, we ain't changing it, you'll like it because WE say so and you'll buy it or you're anti-American. Well, that's total BS. Give me something worth the money I make scraping rocks out of this quarry I work in (yes it's AMERICAN MADE stone) and I'll buy it. They should just put their bikes in art galleries.