700+ with a 2.3 Whipple...

**Stangman701** · 12-18-2009, 09:20 AM

Stumbled across this thread on modularfords last night. Didn't really think 700 would be possible with a 2.3 without N2O or some serious mods, but E85 to the rescue

. http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...&highlight=E85

I thought the 100 octane VS E85 graph was very impressive. This was at the same boost level, 21 PSI

**no1sirbutler** · 12-18-2009, 07:13 PM

thats pretty impressive but correct me if im wrong but isnt that boost level on that little blower just making more heat than hp?

**Stangman701** · 12-18-2009, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by no1sirbutler

thats pretty impressive but correct me if im wrong but isnt that boost level on that little blower just making more heat than hp?

I think there's a lot of guys that run that much if not more with race gas on 03-04 cobras with that blower or the smaller KB's. 18-19 PSI isn't uncommon on pump gas tunes. There's not too many people making anywhere close to 700 on race gas though. Mark, u1arunit, is one of the higher hp whipple cars that I know of and even he's not all that close to 700. There's a few more upgrades required to run E85, but I was really surprised at the minimal amount of mods and small blower making these #'s. I really hope to be running E85 within the next couple years. The only additional cost over a normal whipple setup that I saw would be the -8 line from the pump to the fuel rails, the GT pumps, and the dual FPDM setup. You would already have to buy bigger injectors, so the 80's over the 60's really isn't that much, if any more and a lot of guys do the larger pumps anyways. There's a 3.4L whipple cobra out there that made over 800 rwhp on E85.

**phillysrt4** · 12-20-2009, 10:03 AM

E85 is pretty cool stuff. From what I've read it resists detonation better than 100 octane gasoline, but its lower stoich ratio means you need to run higher duty cycles or bigger injectors.

If E85 was more common where I live, I'd consider an E85 conversion project.

those are some nice graphs regardless!

**RUTHLESS** · 12-21-2009, 09:12 AM

I already looked in to E85 and every car running it is putting down some BIG numbers. I am keeping my finger crossed that it shows up in my area so I can make the jump.

I did read some thing on the net that I didnt like about it. Since our weather changes so much in Pa they run different mixtures/additives in the colder months.

**Stangman701** · 12-21-2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by RUTHLESS

I already looked in to E85 and every car running it is putting down some BIG numbers. I am keeping my finger crossed that it shows up in my area so I can make the jump.

I did read some thing on the net that I didnt like about it. Since our weather changes so much in Pa they run different mixtures/additives in the colder months.

Yeah, I don't think it's really feasible to run only E85 around here. What I plan on doing is just getting one or two 55 gallon drums and filling them up in the summer then keeping them in my garage. I'd also have a back up 93 octane tune. I'm hoping enough timing could be backed out in the tune to be able to run the same boost level, but if not then I guess I'll carry an extra pulley and belt in the trunk.

**ddmi-twin90gt** · 12-21-2009, 09:57 AM

Guess you want to change your fuel system again?

**RUTHLESS** · 12-21-2009, 11:10 AM

Maybe some sticky tires will make the car feel faster and make me happy. It will put an end to the smoke shows for the hondas at the lights.

All those kids said was "Man that things a beast!"

**Martin0660** · 12-21-2009, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by RUTHLESS

I did read some thing on the net that I didnt like about it. Since our weather changes so much in Pa they run different mixtures/additives in the colder months.

That's my issue (even if I could get it). 105 octane at the pump would rock, but the issue is the mix, and worse yet, the lack of control of it. It is required to be at least 15% gasoline. When gas is cheap(er) or they have trouble getting enough ethanol, there is more gas in it. They can add more gas and still able to call it E85. In the winter months, cars d not want to start on it. 40* seems to be the magic number, below that it wont vaporize for start-up so it needs to "flood" the engine to get enough gas for it to fire.

The "real" flex fuel vehicles has a sensor that detects the mix and adjusts the PW and spark based on the ratio. most DIY conversions just add x% across the tables. If the mix is off, you are screwed with more gas ....

We have several 2.3 Turbo cars in our little world that where "tuned" for E85 by upping the injector size (without changing tables) and adjusting base fuel pressure. Several are daily drivers. The tuned ones are seeing 15% reduction in milage while E85 clims to use 30% more fuel. Pretty good tradeoff, and these guys can run 30 psi on pump fuel :D

The good news is, work contiunes on adapting the flex fuel sensors to stand alone systems ...

**wick** · 12-21-2009, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by RUTHLESS

I did read some thing on the net that I didnt like about it. Since our weather changes so much in Pa they run different mixtures/additives in the colder months.

And thats different from the regular gas how?

**Stangman701** · 12-21-2009, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by wick

And thats different from the regular gas how?

They run less Ethanol in the winter months to help with cold starting. It can be down to about 70% Ethanol instead of the 85% it's supposed to be in the summer. That's going to decrease the amount of fuel that the engine needs, but will also decrease the octane rating. Like mentioned earlier, actual flex fuel vehicles have sensors to compensate for this, but I doubt that would be feasible to incorporate into our cars.

**wick** · 12-21-2009, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Stangman701

They run less Ethanol in the winter months to help with cold starting. It can be down to about 70% Ethanol instead of the 85% it's supposed to be in the summer. That's going to decrease the amount of fuel that the engine needs, but will also decrease the octane rating. Like mentioned earlier, actual flex fuel vehicles have sensors to compensate for this, but I doubt that would be feasible to incorporate into our cars.

OOOOHHHHHHHH, I see.

**biminiLX** · 12-22-2009, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Martin0660

The good news is, work contiunes on adapting the flex fuel sensors to stand alone systems ...

FAST XFI now has a system for this using the GM flex-fuel sensor, allows you to basically run whatever gas you have and the computer automatically compensates. BS3 should have something ready by now too.
Waiting to talk to my tuner about this, but I may make the jump soon.
My brother has been running E85 for 2 seasons with excellent results.
-J

**u1arunit** · 12-23-2009, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Stangman701

..There's not too many people making anywhere close to 700 on race gas though. Mark, u1arunit, is one of the higher hp whipple cars that I know of and even he's not all that close to 700...

Hey! I am making 663/665 on 100 octane. E85 is just a passing fad! LOL

**burntire** · 12-23-2009, 02:18 PM

I have all the stuff to do an E-85 conversion in my garage. I will be swithing over this summer. I am tired of pay $11 a gallon for race gas. Mark is loaded so he doesn't mind.

**u1arunit** · 12-24-2009, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by burntire

I have all the stuff to do an E-85 conversion in my garage. I will be swithing over this summer. I am tired of pay $11 a gallon for race gas. Mark is loaded so he doesn't mind.

hehehe.. I have a gas card for work now. Too bad Sheetz does not sell 100 octane!! :)

**Martin0660** · 12-24-2009, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by biminiLX

FAST XFI now has a system for this using the GM flex-fuel sensor, allows you to basically run whatever gas you have and the computer automatically compensates. BS3 should have something ready by now too.

Good to know J, last I knew it had bugs. I know the MS guys are struggling with it because the target AFR tables need to be different.

Originally Posted by biminiLX

My brother has been running E85 for 2 seasons with excellent results.

Is he running from a pump or buying cans? The drum stuff is controlled, the pump stuff not so much from what I've seen. I would love to switch but could not tolerate the mix issues and can't keep that many drums around :D

I would not be able to switch back and forth either becasue the injectors I would need for E85 (120#) wouldnt idle for crap on gas. Eh, kind of a moot point since I would burn half of it out to get to and from the nearest pump.

**XtremeS10** · 12-25-2009, 10:49 AM

I know from over on SVTP one of the Twin Turbo GT500's with the blower setup on it as well runs ethanol simply because he runs over 30psi of boost. His IAT's stay around 120* if I remember correctly, and its pretty much the only reason he can run that setup. Not sure about all the details of it, but I do know its a major part of his setup.

**biminiLX** · 12-26-2009, 11:51 AM

Bob, he runs the pump shit, and i hear your concerns on that.
Its pretty much all over in Toledo and his local station goes through it at a pretty good pace according to the manager he spoke with there.
Also, the tune is very conservative to compensate for the blend fluctuations as best as he can, but your right, definitely not ideal.
If he does a twin screw, he plans on buying 5 gallons of the correct blend for the tune.
-J