Roll cage question - strip & open track

[PaxtonShelby]

Hi folks - I'd like to be able to take my '66 to BeaveRun for some road course fun, but to do that I need 3-point seatbelts. Currently, my car only has the 2-point belts like they had in the '65/'66 Shelbys ( 3 inch competition belts ). They were fine for Jerry Titus and others back in the day, but nowadays I guess they just aren't safe enough. Hey - I can't drive like Jerry Titus, so I'm all for being as safe as possible if I'm out on the track. Ok now...watch how this will snowball...

My car isn't crazy quick...just low 12's now. The stock seats don't offer much lateral support by today's standards. I don't like the look of 3-point belts in the early cars, even though they can be retrofitted relatively cheaply. So I started looking into some upgrades ( yeah, here we go... ) - like the Procar Rally seats they use in the Eleanor cars. I sat in them out at Summit and dang they're nice! ( photo below )

5-point harnesses and a rollbar would be my next steps. The harnesses with the cam-locks really seem to be nice and relatively easy to use - not as cumbersome as the older-style pieces. I was thinking about something like these from G-Force... ( below )

Now - I've seen harnesses that just attach around the rollbar, and others that you have to weld belt mounting tabs to the rollbar ( and maybe to the floor? ). Is one way better than another? What is required for drag racing? Is it safe to assume that if a rollbar is adequate for drag racing ( assuming that I'll be running less than 11.5 seconds at some point - if that is the point at which a bar is required?? ), then it would be ok for a road course?

What type of rollbar would I need for drag racing - is a 4-point ok, or would I have to go with a 6-point or ?? I doubt the car will ever be a 9 second car, but I could see it going deep into the 11's or high 10's one day with more cubes. If you guys could let me know what kind of bar is needed for the various E.T. ranges that would help. I'm really hoping a 4-point will be all I need, as 6-point cages are a good bit more intrusive. Also - I know the over-the-shoulder belts need to be mounted at a certain height - slightly below the shoulders? - to be safe, so I'm thinking I'd like to have a removable crossbar running across the hoop, to which I could mount the harnesses. That would allow me to remove the crossbar when I have to put the family into the car - I don't want anyone banging their heads on a crossbar if I have to slam on the brakes.

What type of material should the cage be made of? I guess chromoly tubing is the strongest, but I have no idea what the rules require.

So basically, I want to make the car safe at the strip and road course, and eventually a good bit quicker ( that part involves a whole other bunch of upgrades down the road... ), while doing more drag strip and road course duty. It will always remain a 95% street car - I just want it to be safe and legal for all the other stuff. If I have to spend a little more $$ to get it to that point, I figure that is the smart way to go.

Feel free to chime in with any suggestions or whatever. I'm at the front end of the learning curve here.

Thanks for the help!

Ron

[bgblockelcamino]

once you go faster than 11.49 will need 6pt minumum. i say go 8pt
what i do for lot of people who daily drive or driver thier car regualrly i will do swingouts that way you can take the bars out of car when you don't use it.

as for belts it is all a preference but to be properly done needs to be mounted to roll bar.

chromo is not lighter and or stronger. it is more dense than steel hence why it can by made lighter due to thinner wall thickness.
welded seam HREW 1.75 is .134 wall
DOM steel is 1.75 at .120 wall
chromo is 1.75 at .083 wall.

it is all a preference though. i have 10 pt chromo in my car.

[PaxtonShelby]

Bigblock - thanks for the info and advice!! Sounds like you do this for a living? or spend a lot of time doing it on the side?

Now before I call it a night, I have some more questions!!! :D

Can you describe how the swingouts work? Are they hinged or do they have some type of quick-release pins or ?

Is it legal to have a rear cross-bar that is removable? If so, does it have to be bolted in or is there some type of quick-release device that can be used? I really want to keep the rear seat accessible for the kids. My 4-year-old daughter already has the need for speed, so she loves going for rides...

Is it possible to install a 4-point bar now, then upgrade to an 8-point cage later? That might be the best way for me to go - I could do the seat and harness upgrade, which would get me on the track at BeaveRun. Then, when I upgrade the drivetrain, I could finish the cage.

I'm guessing the chromoly tubing is the most expensive? Other than $ and weight, is there any reason to use chromoly over the DOM or welded seam tubing?

Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it!

[frcefed]

im looking to cage my 92lx as well. know of any installers. car runs a 10.6 and i would need swingouts as well

[SK360]

think technically it's a 5 point required from 10.0-11.49, there doesn't have to be a passenger door bar but most do it anyway.

[CobraII]

Ron, the IHRA website posts their rulebook online, which can be very helpful. Here it is:
http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/...on/?m=1203&l=1

If you go to page 100 or so, you'll see some of the requirements. You may have to go to the Summit Team Finals rules to see what is required at what ET. I believe the 8 point roll bar (hoop, 2 bars to the trunk, 2 bars to the doors, 2 "legs" off the hoop to give it stability) is good to 10.00 (hardtops) or 135mph, whichever comes first.

BB is correct about the material, it's personal preference. Mine is mild steel. The weight savings was not worth the extra expense of the chromemoly. I have also seen chromemoly after a bad crash. It appears brittle, to me.

I like camlock belts, and that's what will be going in mine. Either is fine though, to keep you in your seat. I've never seen a crossbar that was removable, and I doubt it would be legal. It serves for stabilty for the seat and cage, in addition to a mounting point for the shoulder belts. Your Mustang is smaller than my Cutlass, but, so are your kids. I am not small at all, and can fit under the bar with the back seat in. Maybe pad the bar in addition to the back seat seat belts?

The door bar on the driver's side has to intersect the upper arm between the shoulder and elbow. Swing out bars I've seen in a couple styles, with a pin in or a spring loaded slide. Check out S&W Race Cars site, I think they have pics of theirs. Swing outs are legal to 8.50. Again, I'm not small, and I didn't bother with the swing outs. I'd rather the bar have the full strength.

It does sound like BB does cage work. Take him some good bbq and he might give you a rate... just a guess on my part though. :D

Dave Dominick does awesome work, but you have to stand in line:

http://dominickracing.com/

[bgblockelcamino]

It does sound like BB does cage work. Take him some good bbq and he might give you a rate... just a guess on my part though. :D

the swingouts i use are applied racing technology, not a fan of the s&w or competition engineering ones they seem to weaken the cage IMO.
https://www.appliedracing.net/produc...a8498c77aa5b7d

they are pricey but work.
as for removeable seat belt bar it will not be legal and loses all the rigidity at that point.

another thing to keep in mind about cages not only is it for safety it will make the chassis response better too. which in turn will make car faster. i know one cage i did the person picked up 2 tenths since his car was able to plant the rear tire better.

[Martin0660]

Dave Dominick does awesome work, but you have to stand in line

Dave does great work, but I hate how he does (did ?) swing outs. It's purely personal preference, but raises a good point ... Probably the best advise you can get concerning a cage is to have a look at several cars the builder has done and talk to the owners. It's even best to do it at the track, see a car you like, and ask who did the work and if they would go back. No builder is going to give you a reference that isnt a buddy.

another thing to keep in mind about cages not only is it for safety it will make the chassis response better too. which in turn will make car faster.

X2! Exactly why there is a bar in my car, along with mounting points for belts. The rear suspension is much tighter and more predicatble. Also being a stick shift car, being belted in puts me in the same position every time for better repeatabilty. All intangible to the safety rules, but exactly what my roll bar does for me.

Also as was said, the harness bar must be welded to be legal. Another point, even if you wont "need" a bar based on ET, it has to be legal as most places will tech it like it is required if it is there, same with the two year cert on harness.

In the end I went with a prefab bar becasue it was available and fit the bill for what I wanted. The design on my door bars require swingouts as I would struggle to get in without them (can get out if I had too). Not likely any direct use to your car, but here is an album with pictures of mine ...

http://rides.webshots.com/album/562275869RfkbjA

A picture that shows my swingouts, since this I had them powdercoated so they arent all scratched up ...




When my door bars are removed, the only thing left up front is the reciever in the floor and the two ears you can see in the previuos pictures. It's the black part below the shaft collar in this picture ...



I couldn't be happier with mine.

[PaxtonShelby]

Hey - thanks a bunch for all the help and the links fellas! I am going to take a look at the sites that were suggested, and try to learn more about all of this.

Wow - so harnesses are only certified for 2 years? Jeez - that's a little ( actually a LOT ) harsh, considering what they cost!!! I'll have to check to see how fast you have to be for harnesses to be required. I really only go to occasional test-n-tune days at the track, and at tech they never even looked at my current seat belts other than to confirm that they were actually in the car.

At this point my thought is that a 4-point DOM bar would get me started, and upgraded to an 8-point bar if ( hopefully WHEN ) I need it. I want to learn the safest/strongest way to mount it in a unibody car. I see kits with 6" x 6" plates that get welded to the floorpans, and the bar mounted to them, but that doesn't seem really strong to me. I'm wondering if the bar could be tied in to the subframe connectors on my car for extra strength. Sounds like an excuse to spend some time surfing for some answers.

Any of you guys know Imperial Heights Garage? Kurt ( owner ) inspects our cars and I like how he works - very thorough - and I know his shop builds a lot of cages for dirt track cars. That might be a good place to start.

Thanks again guys - I'm sure I'll have more questions soon.

[bgblockelcamino]

that is standard practice to mount cage on unibody cars with 6x6 plates. full frame cars you mount to frame. it is ideal to tie the cage into subframe connectors. but that all goes with a customers needs/budget.

[Martin0660]

Wow - so harnesses are only certified for 2 years?

For drag racing, yes two years. Even at PRP where my car is pretty well known, one thing that always gets checked every spring is my belt dates. Every one of the NMRA races they have checked dates on all 5 belts. Yes, it's a PITA.

Keep in mind that is for drag racing, I see guys selling their out of date belts at swap meets all the time. Guys into off road, dirt racing, or what not don't seem to care.

[CobraII]

Yes, aftermarket belts have a 2 year date on them. I *think* that stock seat belts are ok, even with a roll bar, until you hit 11.49. I still have the stock belts in, with my 8 point roll bar, and at Norwalk for the Halloween Classic last month, the tech inspector said everything was fine, since my ET (low 12s) is slower than the rule cutoff (11.49). And he went through everything, including asking me to open the trunk to verify no fuel cell or battery, and checked the date on my helmet.

But, just my opinion, if the Mustang only has the lap belt, you need at least the shoulder belt, to keep your upper body and head from going forward. Better to have it and not need it than need it and wish you'd had it. Cheap insurance... how much is your health worth?

[TooFast98Cobra]

this reminds me my belts and bell are out of cert damn, time to shipem out

[PaxtonShelby]

But, just my opinion, if the Mustang only has the lap belt, you need at least the shoulder belt, to keep your upper body and head from going forward. Better to have it and not need it than need it and wish you'd had it. Cheap insurance... how much is your health worth?

CobraII - I agree with you 100%. I just don't like the look of the retro-fitted 3-point belts in the early Mustangs like mine. That's why I'm thinking of the 4-point rollbar / 5-point harness upgrade. Of course, it appears that this will eventually spiral out of control...8 point cage...upgrade to aftermarket axles/traction-lok...SFI balancer, SFI flywheel, rated helmet, beefier 5-speed, blow-proof bell, driveshaft safety loop ( on the shelf patiently awaiting installation ), yada yada yada...:)

And thanks for the link to the IHRA rulebook - lots of good stuff in there!!

[CobraII]

Glad that the link is helping you out. Yeah, the snowball effect gets us all. :D And we don't seem to fight it too much either. :D

Post up whenever you'll be hitting PRP. I love the first gen Mustangs, they're what got me into cars.

[biminiLX]

At this point my thought is that a 4-point DOM bar would get me started, and upgraded to an 8-point bar if ( hopefully WHEN ) I need it. I want to learn the safest/strongest way to mount it in a unibody car. I see kits with 6" x 6" plates that get welded to the floorpans, and the bar mounted to them, but that doesn't seem really strong to me. I'm wondering if the bar could be tied in to the subframe connectors on my car for extra strength. Sounds like an excuse to spend some time surfing for some answers.

I think your on the right track here Ron.
From seeing your car and talking to you, I'd do a simple 4-point rollbar and then the seats and harnesses you mentioned above.
I always like those seats in the classic musclecars, but you might be able to find a 5-way harness that looks more retro, not sure.
I have the same G-force harnesses with cam-locks (which I highly recommend, especially for a car that gets street time.
The key is to make the rollbar ready to convert to a 6 or 8-point (with swing-outs) down the road when you.
And yes, the 2yr. rule is BS to me, but thats the rules. I just tranferred my expired driver harness to the passenger. I am also needing to replace the driver harness, so I'll have an older passenger one you can have to mock up and see if you like.
Maximum Motorsports makes a decent 6-point bolt-in with removeable door bars my brother uses. I'd think someone would make something like that for your car with all the vintage Shelby racers out there.
Good luck.
-J

[Martin0660]

Maximum Motorsports makes a decent 6-point bolt-in with removeable door bars my brother uses.

That is what mine is as well (pictures above)

[somethingclever]

Can children legally ride in the back of a car with a 4-pt bar in it?

Ron, do you think if you were ever in an accident, that a rear passenger could contact the cross bar that runs across the hoop that holds the belts?

[biminiLX]

Can children legally ride in the back of a car with a 4-pt bar in it?

Ron, do you think if you were ever in an accident, that a rear passenger could contact the cross bar that runs across the hoop that holds the belts?

Good point Jon.
I would be concerned too, but hopefully the rear lap belts would prevent that.
Some crossbars between the main hoop can bolt-in/out like the MM 6-point Bob and my brother have (this has to be welded to be NHRA legal).

Maybe just buy the kids some racing helmets Ron?
-J

[Black Vert]

Just an FYI, 5 point harness is not legal for the street, not dot approved. Will not pass state inspection either.