Roll cage question - strip & open track

[PaxtonShelby]

Hi folks - I'd like to be able to take my '66 to BeaveRun for some road course fun, but to do that I need 3-point seatbelts. Currently, my car only has the 2-point belts like they had in the '65/'66 Shelbys ( 3 inch competition belts ). They were fine for Jerry Titus and others back in the day, but nowadays I guess they just aren't safe enough. Hey - I can't drive like Jerry Titus, so I'm all for being as safe as possible if I'm out on the track. Ok now...watch how this will snowball...

My car isn't crazy quick...just low 12's now. The stock seats don't offer much lateral support by today's standards. I don't like the look of 3-point belts in the early cars, even though they can be retrofitted relatively cheaply. So I started looking into some upgrades ( yeah, here we go... ) - like the Procar Rally seats they use in the Eleanor cars. I sat in them out at Summit and dang they're nice! ( photo below )

5-point harnesses and a rollbar would be my next steps. The harnesses with the cam-locks really seem to be nice and relatively easy to use - not as cumbersome as the older-style pieces. I was thinking about something like these from G-Force... ( below )

Now - I've seen harnesses that just attach around the rollbar, and others that you have to weld belt mounting tabs to the rollbar ( and maybe to the floor? ). Is one way better than another? What is required for drag racing? Is it safe to assume that if a rollbar is adequate for drag racing ( assuming that I'll be running less than 11.5 seconds at some point - if that is the point at which a bar is required?? ), then it would be ok for a road course?

What type of rollbar would I need for drag racing - is a 4-point ok, or would I have to go with a 6-point or ?? I doubt the car will ever be a 9 second car, but I could see it going deep into the 11's or high 10's one day with more cubes. If you guys could let me know what kind of bar is needed for the various E.T. ranges that would help. I'm really hoping a 4-point will be all I need, as 6-point cages are a good bit more intrusive. Also - I know the over-the-shoulder belts need to be mounted at a certain height - slightly below the shoulders? - to be safe, so I'm thinking I'd like to have a removable crossbar running across the hoop, to which I could mount the harnesses. That would allow me to remove the crossbar when I have to put the family into the car - I don't want anyone banging their heads on a crossbar if I have to slam on the brakes.

What type of material should the cage be made of? I guess chromoly tubing is the strongest, but I have no idea what the rules require.

So basically, I want to make the car safe at the strip and road course, and eventually a good bit quicker ( that part involves a whole other bunch of upgrades down the road... ), while doing more drag strip and road course duty. It will always remain a 95% street car - I just want it to be safe and legal for all the other stuff. If I have to spend a little more $$ to get it to that point, I figure that is the smart way to go.

Feel free to chime in with any suggestions or whatever. I'm at the front end of the learning curve here.

Thanks for the help!

Ron

[bgblockelcamino]

once you go faster than 11.49 will need 6pt minumum. i say go 8pt
what i do for lot of people who daily drive or driver thier car regualrly i will do swingouts that way you can take the bars out of car when you don't use it.

as for belts it is all a preference but to be properly done needs to be mounted to roll bar.

chromo is not lighter and or stronger. it is more dense than steel hence why it can by made lighter due to thinner wall thickness.
welded seam HREW 1.75 is .134 wall
DOM steel is 1.75 at .120 wall
chromo is 1.75 at .083 wall.

it is all a preference though. i have 10 pt chromo in my car.

[PaxtonShelby]

Bigblock - thanks for the info and advice!! Sounds like you do this for a living? or spend a lot of time doing it on the side?

Now before I call it a night, I have some more questions!!! :D

Can you describe how the swingouts work? Are they hinged or do they have some type of quick-release pins or ?

Is it legal to have a rear cross-bar that is removable? If so, does it have to be bolted in or is there some type of quick-release device that can be used? I really want to keep the rear seat accessible for the kids. My 4-year-old daughter already has the need for speed, so she loves going for rides...

Is it possible to install a 4-point bar now, then upgrade to an 8-point cage later? That might be the best way for me to go - I could do the seat and harness upgrade, which would get me on the track at BeaveRun. Then, when I upgrade the drivetrain, I could finish the cage.

I'm guessing the chromoly tubing is the most expensive? Other than $ and weight, is there any reason to use chromoly over the DOM or welded seam tubing?

Thanks again for your input. I really appreciate it!

[CobraII]

Ron, the IHRA website posts their rulebook online, which can be very helpful. Here it is:
http://www.mydigitalpublication.com/...on/?m=1203&l=1

If you go to page 100 or so, you'll see some of the requirements. You may have to go to the Summit Team Finals rules to see what is required at what ET. I believe the 8 point roll bar (hoop, 2 bars to the trunk, 2 bars to the doors, 2 "legs" off the hoop to give it stability) is good to 10.00 (hardtops) or 135mph, whichever comes first.

BB is correct about the material, it's personal preference. Mine is mild steel. The weight savings was not worth the extra expense of the chromemoly. I have also seen chromemoly after a bad crash. It appears brittle, to me.

I like camlock belts, and that's what will be going in mine. Either is fine though, to keep you in your seat. I've never seen a crossbar that was removable, and I doubt it would be legal. It serves for stabilty for the seat and cage, in addition to a mounting point for the shoulder belts. Your Mustang is smaller than my Cutlass, but, so are your kids. I am not small at all, and can fit under the bar with the back seat in. Maybe pad the bar in addition to the back seat seat belts?

The door bar on the driver's side has to intersect the upper arm between the shoulder and elbow. Swing out bars I've seen in a couple styles, with a pin in or a spring loaded slide. Check out S&W Race Cars site, I think they have pics of theirs. Swing outs are legal to 8.50. Again, I'm not small, and I didn't bother with the swing outs. I'd rather the bar have the full strength.

It does sound like BB does cage work. Take him some good bbq and he might give you a rate... just a guess on my part though. :D

Dave Dominick does awesome work, but you have to stand in line:

http://dominickracing.com/

[bgblockelcamino]

It does sound like BB does cage work. Take him some good bbq and he might give you a rate... just a guess on my part though. :D

the swingouts i use are applied racing technology, not a fan of the s&w or competition engineering ones they seem to weaken the cage IMO.
https://www.appliedracing.net/produc...a8498c77aa5b7d

they are pricey but work.
as for removeable seat belt bar it will not be legal and loses all the rigidity at that point.

another thing to keep in mind about cages not only is it for safety it will make the chassis response better too. which in turn will make car faster. i know one cage i did the person picked up 2 tenths since his car was able to plant the rear tire better.

[Martin0660]

Dave Dominick does awesome work, but you have to stand in line

Dave does great work, but I hate how he does (did ?) swing outs. It's purely personal preference, but raises a good point ... Probably the best advise you can get concerning a cage is to have a look at several cars the builder has done and talk to the owners. It's even best to do it at the track, see a car you like, and ask who did the work and if they would go back. No builder is going to give you a reference that isnt a buddy.

another thing to keep in mind about cages not only is it for safety it will make the chassis response better too. which in turn will make car faster.

X2! Exactly why there is a bar in my car, along with mounting points for belts. The rear suspension is much tighter and more predicatble. Also being a stick shift car, being belted in puts me in the same position every time for better repeatabilty. All intangible to the safety rules, but exactly what my roll bar does for me.

Also as was said, the harness bar must be welded to be legal. Another point, even if you wont "need" a bar based on ET, it has to be legal as most places will tech it like it is required if it is there, same with the two year cert on harness.

In the end I went with a prefab bar becasue it was available and fit the bill for what I wanted. The design on my door bars require swingouts as I would struggle to get in without them (can get out if I had too). Not likely any direct use to your car, but here is an album with pictures of mine ...

http://rides.webshots.com/album/562275869RfkbjA

A picture that shows my swingouts, since this I had them powdercoated so they arent all scratched up ...




When my door bars are removed, the only thing left up front is the reciever in the floor and the two ears you can see in the previuos pictures. It's the black part below the shaft collar in this picture ...



I couldn't be happier with mine.

[frcefed]

im looking to cage my 92lx as well. know of any installers. car runs a 10.6 and i would need swingouts as well

[SK360]

think technically it's a 5 point required from 10.0-11.49, there doesn't have to be a passenger door bar but most do it anyway.

[bgblockelcamino]

that is standard practice to mount cage on unibody cars with 6x6 plates. full frame cars you mount to frame. it is ideal to tie the cage into subframe connectors. but that all goes with a customers needs/budget.

[TooFast98Cobra]

this reminds me my belts and bell are out of cert damn, time to shipem out

[somethingclever]

Can children legally ride in the back of a car with a 4-pt bar in it?

Ron, do you think if you were ever in an accident, that a rear passenger could contact the cross bar that runs across the hoop that holds the belts?

[biminiLX]

Can children legally ride in the back of a car with a 4-pt bar in it?

Ron, do you think if you were ever in an accident, that a rear passenger could contact the cross bar that runs across the hoop that holds the belts?

Good point Jon.
I would be concerned too, but hopefully the rear lap belts would prevent that.
Some crossbars between the main hoop can bolt-in/out like the MM 6-point Bob and my brother have (this has to be welded to be NHRA legal).

Maybe just buy the kids some racing helmets Ron?
-J

[Black Vert]

Just an FYI, 5 point harness is not legal for the street, not dot approved. Will not pass state inspection either.

[PaxtonShelby]

Just an FYI, 5 point harness is not legal for the street, not dot approved. Will not pass state inspection either.

Thanks vert - fortunately I have antique plates on my '66. No inspection!

[Martin0660]

Some crossbars between the main hoop can bolt-in/out like the MM 6-point Bob and my brother have (this has to be welded to be NHRA legal).

Yep, mine is welded.

[TYR FRYR]

Here's what my back seat looks like. The crossbar is right at face-height, so I didn't let anyone ride the back.

[ame]http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t196/LKS613/IMG_1514.jpg[/ame]

[PaxtonShelby]

Hi again folks. Well, the Procar Seats are patiently sitting in their boxes in the back seat of the '66. They're really cool looking - I can't wait to find the time to install them.

I was re-reading all the help you guys have offered in this thread, and totally appreciate all of it and agree that the hoop crossbar would be very dangerous to passengers in the rear seat in the event of an accident. That's a great point. I doubt the lap belts in the back seat would hold passengers back from contacting the crossbar with the face/head. So I'm thinking that getting some 5-point harnesses for the back seat might make things much safer for the rare occasions when folks are in the back seat. A crossbar welded in behind the rear seat would be a good place to mount the harnesses. Hmmm...

Besides this, the next thing to research is upgrading the 28 spline 9" rear currently in the car. Coincidentally, that also is the cheapest upgrade on the list...compared to a tranny upgrade, blowproof bell, stroker motor...

Dang...I need a raise...

[Mark Aubele]

Just an FYI, 5 point harness is not legal for the street, not dot approved. Will not pass state inspection either.

I always just left the factory belts in the car too. I hate harnesses on the street anyway.

Hi again folks. Well, the Procar Seats are patiently sitting in their boxes in the back seat of the '66. They're really cool looking - I can't wait to find the time to install them.

You may want to reconsider those seats (if they are the ones in the photos you posted). I can't see a hole to properly mount the sub belt. If you are going to track the car (road course), you need to have that properly mounted. The sub belt is extremely important, it needs to pull the lap belt straight down. Those harnesses can kill you if not properly installed.

[PaxtonShelby]

Thanks for that info. I was considering not using the sub belt, basically making them 4-point belts. Would that be a problem at the strip?

[Mark Aubele]

Thanks for that info. I was considering not using the sub belt, basically making them 4-point belts. Would that be a problem at the strip?

IMO, I would never wear a harness without a sub belt. It is there for a very important reason, and it isn't to keep you from going under the belts necessarily; it is more to keep the lap belt from coming up and crushing your chest. The belts just cannot be effective without it. Another option for you would be to run a six point belt; they attach to the same point the lap belts do, you actually sit on them, and they keep the belt from coming up on you in an accident. This is what I did when I was hillclimbing my M3 when it still had the stock seats. You may actually find this option a bit more comfortable even, and the price difference is negligible.