Turbo 427 rebuild

[biminiLX]

Looks like I will be building version 2.0 of this motor after inspection found a few things that need to be addressed with the motor.
As some of you know, my car is up at Street Lethal and Terry, Shawn, George and the guys have been taking good care of some major upgrades (will post a car build thread later).
The car was converted to an AOD last year and had one testing session before the flexplate and starter teeth had a disagreement. After removing the trans, the flexplate is slightly warped and there are impressions of the flexplate bolts on the front of the converter (billet 10.5" front half). Then one cylinder wouldn't hold compression while checking the valve springs, so the motor was pulled and found to have 2 cracked intake valve springs, a few loose valve guides, and bearing material in the pan from a wiped thrust bearing. Main bearings also need replacement but the cylinders, heads, pistons, rods, etc. all look fine.
So, nothing too terrible and glad it was found early. Might be for the best to allow updating the motor and making it ready for 20psi, 7000rpm traps and 1200hp
This is the plan, feel free to comment or recommend changes.

427" Short block:
W-351 9.5" 4-bolt SVO 2.75" main siamese block (same)
4.125" bore Diamond custom turbo pistons, tool steel pins, hell Fire rings (same)
4.0" Scat billet crank (will change from 28oz. to neutral balance)
6.200" Howard billet rods with ARP 2000 bolts (upgrade 4340 Scat Hs w/ regular ARP bolts)
Stef's custom pan and Melling HV oil pump (same)
ATI aluminum hub balancer and JW flexplate (new)

Induction:
TFS High Ports Ed Curtis/Flowtech Induction CNC 240cc package with 8mm 2.08/1.6 valves and LSx springs/moly retainers (replace 227cc Bennett stage 3 CNC Vic Jrs. with 2.05/1.6 valves)
Edelbrock 2828 Super Victor converted to EFI (replace Ed/FTI ported/modified Victor EFI long-runner intake)
4500 Dominator flange 4-hole TB in Vortech carb enclosure box (replace 85mm TB)
1.7 ratio Probe shaft rockers (replace 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers)
Ed/FTI custom hydraulic roller turbo cam .624/.579 240/236 116 with 1.6s (same)
Morel link-bar HR lifters (replace FRPP factory style lifters/spider)
Stiff wall pushrods (new)

Turbo:
Same TeamZ kit with Comp cover GT4788 1.08 T6 88mm turbo, 1 3/4" turbo headers, 3" crossover. May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection. Same fuel system.

Plan:
The motor will be broken-in like last time with a carb on an engine dyno. Last motor made 521hp @ 56-5800 and 518tq @47-4800 with a small vic jr/750cfm no power tuning, just break-in.
Hope to make about 600hp on motor, then modifications of the turbo kit before chassis dyno tuning at Street Lethal. Last made 720rwhp at 19psi on a tight Mustang dyno (was 865/900 with the stick on a Dynojet at 15psi) and went 9.60@148 on 13.5psi with 1.58 60' leaving without boost in 90+ heat about 3250# (went 9.84@149 on 15psi with a stick).
Ultimate goal is to run consistent 8.50-60s @ 160-65mph in True Street events.
Hoping to do that with as little rpm and boost as necesary
Let me know what you think.
-J

[biminiLX]

Here's the 2828 Super Vic intake:

I will be converting it to EFI with my father-in-law who is a CNC tool/die machinist, I will post pics of the progress and make a thread on that.
This intake has a 4500 Dominator flange and 3.6 sq. in. runners (bigger than 2924 regular SV). Will have a basic port match to the heads and whatever minor plenum touches are recommended. It requires -AN water fittings but I already have a -16 AN rad hose so this should just require a Y-connection.
Here is the base of a Vortech/Paxton carb enclosure on the intake:

I found this 4500 flange prototype base for cheap on Ebay and decided to try it. Not the normal elbow and regular TB, but this should decrease intake distribution issues and it is actually shorter than a high flow elbow. The added plenum volume and larger 4-hole throttle bores should help also.
Plus it will be different and look cool ;)

The entire top-end and other parts like the rods will be for sale if you're interested, I'll be getting pics and making a FS ad.
Plan is to get the parts to the engine builder mid-late Jan and making noise on the engine dyno in March, I'll update this thread with pics, flow numbers, progress, etc.
-J

[Martin0660]

Sounds like a hell of a build ...

May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection.

FWIW, Dave Flanders has tested non intercooled and intercooled on straight methanol and ultimately makes more power and is more reliable (true street stuff) with the intercooler. This is a 900 HP (ish) combo.

Personally, I am not a fan of water / methanol injection. Lots of claims of big timing numbers with it, but most are enough timing to overcome the wash down from the water. Too many parts to fail for my liking as well (failed pumps, clogged nozzles, etc, etc).

[Mater]

Nice congrats have fun with ur build!

[cemnt guy]

since my car is at terrys also, i looked at this fox today. car is bad a##love those wheels and tires

[PaxtonShelby]

J - a photo of your car should be next to the word "bad-ass" in the dictionary!!!! :D

[biminiLX]

Thanks guys, will definitely keep this updated. Will get some engine/parts pics and engine dyno vid.

FWIW, Dave Flanders has tested non intercooled and intercooled on straight methanol and ultimately makes more power and is more reliable (true street stuff) with the intercooler. This is a 900 HP (ish) combo.

Personally, I am not a fan of water / methanol injection. Lots of claims of big timing numbers with it, but most are enough timing to overcome the wash down from the water. Too many parts to fail for my liking as well (failed pumps, clogged nozzles, etc, etc).

I hear ya Bob, and I'll probably stay with the intercooler, but I really think my combo would be fine non-intercooled on water/meth injection with reasonable boost (probably 20psi max) and safety with the XFI management. Car doesn't really need the intercooler on the street just off the wastegate spring which I'm planning to be around 7psi.
Biggest reason though is just all the room it would free-up for coolers (rad/oil/trans) and fans--would probably give a few psi too.
Also, more HP available while keeping 96# injectors and 110 octane.
I talked to the guy at AIS (alcohol injection systems I believe) for about an hour and liked what I heard.
-J

[SK@StreetLethal]

It's an awesome car and we are glad to be a part of this build!

[biminiLX]

Thanks Shaun, Street Lethal has been great so far, glad its at a quality shop and will get all things addressed Terry and I have discussed.
-J

[biminiLX]

since my car is at terrys also, i looked at this fox today. car is bad a##love those wheels and tires

Thanks man, but it is honestly the dirtiest its ever been since I owned it :o, should be back on track this year lookin' good and running hard.
-J

[yeahloh95]

wow with that new induction set up it should really make the ets drop

[Black Vert]

The car was converted to an AOD last year and had one testing session before the flexplate and starter teeth had a disagreement. After removing the trans, the flexplate is slightly warped and there are impressions of the flexplate bolts on the front of the converter (billet 10.5" front half). Then one cylinder wouldn't hold compression while checking the valve springs, so the motor was pulled and found to have 2 cracked intake valve springs, a few loose valve guides, and bearing material in the pan from a wiped thrust bearing.

-J

I think its time to put the Shelby drivetrain in it, but that would be a downgrade for you

Its sounds like you ballooned your converter, pushed the crank forward and wiped out the thrust bearing. Im sure your converter has dual anti-ballooning plates though, but by your description of the flexplate bolt impressions and wiped out bearing thats what comes to mind.

Hope to see it this spring, have to get all the Turbo Stangs to the track next year

[biminiLX]

I think its time to put the Shelby drivetrain in it, but that would be a downgrade for you

Its sounds like you ballooned your converter, pushed the crank forward and wiped out the thrust bearing. Im sure your converter has dual anti-ballooning plates though, but by your description of the flexplate bolt impressions and wiped out bearing thats what comes to mind.

Hope to see it this spring, have to get all the Turbo Stangs to the track next year

Yeah, thought of the Shelby drivetrain but weird to think of it as a downgrade :)

Also thought about the converter ballooning but that is a replica of the converter in a combo that was pushing it harder and it has the anti-ballooning treatment and billet front half so I wouldn't suspect that.
Maybe the converter was just set-up too tight, not enough clearance to FP, maybe too big FR bolt heads, something else?
I have my doubts on the install, will have everything double checked outside of the car this time.
I definitely plan on having it out around here for testing in the spring, would be cool to meet up with you guys at PRP.
-J

[cemnt guy]

when you turbo guys go to prp ,please post it so i can go down there to watch. hell i might even run my car:D

[mlowry1260]

J,

you should see a huge difference in down the track IAT by rptating the intercooler to a nearly vertical position. The apparent opening due to the extreme tilt of the intervooler as previously installed had to kill the flow through the cooler & radiator. I'd wait to see what Terry can do with the exist cooler. Keeping the intercooker as Bob said will be the most reliable. If you want to add a water injector for track passes, I could see that. But for true street I'd go passive cooling for simplicity.

You might want to talk converters with Allan @ dirty dog performanve outside of Cincinnati if you haven't sourced that yet. He specializes in AOD & 4R's.

[pwtmxracing]

sounds good what type of air intake tepms did u see with that air to air setup

[pwtmxracing]

when you turbo guys go to prp ,please post it so i can go down there to watch. hell i might even run my car:D

i will b there for the first test and tune

[phillysrt4]

Turbo:
Same TeamZ kit with Comp cover GT4788 1.08 T6 88mm turbo, 1 3/4" turbo headers, 3" crossover. May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection. Same fuel system.

EDIT - that sounds like a nasty setup! You MUST post dyno vid when its done!!

What turbo is that based on? My calcs say that, assuming peak power at 6800 RPM, inlet temp of 110F and A/F of 12:1, and a few other assumptions you need 132 lb/min of air and you're running right around a 2.5 pressure ratio to get 1200 flywheel horsepower.

[Wolfpack Speed]

Looks like I will be building version 2.0 of this motor after inspection found a few things that need to be addressed with the motor.
As some of you know, my car is up at Street Lethal and Terry, Shawn, George and the guys have been taking good care of some major upgrades (will post a car build thread later).
The car was converted to an AOD last year and had one testing session before the flexplate and starter teeth had a disagreement. After removing the trans, the flexplate is slightly warped and there are impressions of the flexplate bolts on the front of the converter (billet 10.5" front half). Then one cylinder wouldn't hold compression while checking the valve springs, so the motor was pulled and found to have 2 cracked intake valve springs, a few loose valve guides, and bearing material in the pan from a wiped thrust bearing. Main bearings also need replacement but the cylinders, heads, pistons, rods, etc. all look fine.
So, nothing too terrible and glad it was found early. Might be for the best to allow updating the motor and making it ready for 20psi, 7000rpm traps and 1200hp
This is the plan, feel free to comment or recommend changes.

427" Short block:
W-351 9.5" 4-bolt SVO 2.75" main siamese block (same)
4.125" bore Diamond custom turbo pistons, tool steel pins, hell Fire rings (same)
4.0" Scat billet crank (will change from 28oz. to neutral balance)
6.200" Howard billet rods with ARP 2000 bolts (upgrade 4340 Scat Hs w/ regular ARP bolts)
Stef's custom pan and Melling HV oil pump (same)
ATI aluminum hub balancer and JW flexplate (new)

Induction:
TFS High Ports Ed Curtis/Flowtech Induction CNC 240cc package with 8mm 2.08/1.6 valves and LSx springs/moly retainers (replace 227cc Bennett stage 3 CNC Vic Jrs. with 2.05/1.6 valves)
Edelbrock 2828 Super Victor converted to EFI (replace Ed/FTI ported/modified Victor EFI long-runner intake)
4500 Dominator flange 4-hole TB in Vortech carb enclosure box (replace 85mm TB)
1.7 ratio Probe shaft rockers (replace 1.6 Comp Pro Magnum rockers)
Ed/FTI custom hydraulic roller turbo cam .624/.579 240/236 116 with 1.6s (same)
Morel link-bar HR lifters (replace FRPP factory style lifters/spider)
Stiff wall pushrods (new)

Turbo:
Same TeamZ kit with Comp cover GT4788 1.08 T6 88mm turbo, 1 3/4" turbo headers, 3" crossover. May change from 1000hp 4" air-air intercooler and 3" cold side pipe to non-intercooled 3.5" coldside and water meth injection. Same fuel system.

Plan:
The motor will be broken-in like last time with a carb on an engine dyno. Last motor made 521hp @ 56-5800 and 518tq @47-4800 with a small vic jr/750cfm no power tuning, just break-in.
Hope to make about 600hp on motor, then modifications of the turbo kit before chassis dyno tuning at Street Lethal. Last made 720rwhp at 19psi on a tight Mustang dyno (was 865/900 with the stick on a Dynojet at 15psi) and went 9.60@148 on 13.5psi with 1.58 60' leaving without boost in 90+ heat about 3250# (went 9.84@149 on 15psi with a stick).
Ultimate goal is to run consistent 8.50-60s @ 160-65mph in True Street events.
Hoping to do that with as little rpm and boost as necesary
Let me know what you think.
-J

Ahhh man, sorry to hear about the car J, good luck with the new build

[biminiLX]

Hey Mike, thanks bro, but thats racin' right?
Oh well, caught it in time, going to build better and stronger!

EDIT - that sounds like a nasty setup! You MUST post dyno vid when its done!!

What turbo is that based on? My calcs say that, assuming peak power at 6800 RPM, inlet temp of 110F and A/F of 12:1, and a few other assumptions you need 132 lb/min of air and you're running right around a 2.5 pressure ratio to get 1200 flywheel horsepower.

Pretty close but I don't think peak will be that high.
I got about 2.5 pressure ratio and between 95 and 125 lb/min based on my calcs (depending on boost) and this is close to my compressor map:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...8compmap_e.jpg
Its a GT4788 (which they call a GT4718) and its a 1.08 A/R so it will be close to the efficiency island. We'll see, whatever it takes to run the number
I'm loading some vids now from the chassis dyno and auto track test, will post soon.
-J