coyote turbo tuning questions

[Seer]

That's probably not the best example. The are limitless ways a user of the pro racer package can damage their motor due to incorrect values. The values they don't open up are things like individual cylinder spark timing, where the professional tuner can squeeze out one or two more HP on the dyno vs. the end user.
Don't misunderstand my statement. Selling different versions is absolutely not unethical. Selling two pieces of software and calling them the same when they are not is.

No that is an excellent example. You are at your own risk of damaging your engine by tuning it, this is a given with any tuning package. You are putting yourself and other people at risk by modifying the electronic throttle control and not knowing what you are doing.

So no, your statement of it being unethical is incorrect and unfounded. They are looking out for liability reasons. Until you are a trained vendor/tuner, ETC is off limits.

[04yellowcobra]

My coyote with the stock factory/copperhead tune runs low 10s. I guess you want to really go fast!

[phillysrt4]

I do, but without gutting the car or running a wet shot.

Unless that's an 8th mile time


(edit- I have sigs turned off so I dont know your mods)

[04yellowcobra]

No need to talk mods. Stock engine, longtubes, intake, stock tune, full interior with 300# of lead strapped to the frame to get it to 3000#. Last passes were 10.39 and 10.41.

[phillysrt4]

cool story bro! ;)

[phillysrt4]

SCT by itself does not lend you the proper tables to edit the TiVCT tables in a coyote fully. You need to export your logs and perform varying equations on them to get the proper values, then reimport them back into SCT. Needless to say, there aren't many people who fully modify those tables successfully.

I remember reading that future HPTuner releases would enable this.

Im looking forward to exploring this side of performance.

[burntire]

There is also an SCT PRP support forum for software owners.

[phillysrt4]

Oh so once I buy the software I get access to the forum here?

[sutyak]

Oh so once I buy the software I get access to the forum here?

Yes, but you only need the pro racer package if you plan on doing the tuning yourself.

[phillysrt4]

I hadn't considered doing the tuning myself, but just the knowledge I could gain from getting the software would make it worth it.

[Rodeheaver's]

Coyotes are tough. Lots and lots of tables. For instance you would think there would be 2 or maybe 4 max cam timing tables to adjust. Well there is about 50 tables but you only play with about 10 of them. Same goes for timing. There are about 50 timing tables, but you only use likes 8 of them for wot. If you decide to do this I tecomnend tuning it NA and try and get a feel for the odd learning curve your about to put yourself through. Thus is wAy different from stand alone sd or alpha n stuff.

[phillysrt4]

I dig it. This is more of an esoteric exercise than anything. I want to be able to understand more of the how and why so that I become a partner in getting the car tuned instead of just a spectator. Computers, programming, and data tables are things I get along with very well so this will be an extra dimension to the fun of modding the car. :)

[Seer]

You still will not be able to log the how and why the cam timing functions and the sd settings with sct. Cam angle is about it. HPTuners is supposedly releasing their scanner which will be able to handle the SD and Cam tuning inside of the package suite shortly. Just this weekend they opened the Coyote flex fuel tables to allow E85 on the fly without the aid of additional sensors.

[ERR0RMACR0]

You still will not be able to log the how and why the cam timing functions and the sd settings with sct. Cam angle is about it. HPTuners is supposedly releasing their scanner which will be able to handle the SD and Cam tuning inside of the package suite shortly. Just this weekend they opened the Coyote flex fuel tables to allow E85 on the fly without the aid of additional sensors.

Does a Mustang GT already have an ethanol sensor in the car?

[Seer]

Does a Mustang GT already have an ethanol sensor in the car?

The F150 and Mustang GT are setup the same way, same engine, same widebands, knock sensors, fuel level sensors, same engine etc. The F150's Copperhead and now Tri Cor PCM, had the flex fuel tables unlocked where the Mustang did not. It uses a combination of it's widebands and knock sensors to add and remove timing based on the detected variance of stoich to determine ethanol content. Just a different way of doing the same thing with a stand alone ethanol sensor. It's not instant though, the fuel level activates a learn mode, that takes about 5 minutes. But this weekend, HPTuners added a new strategy for 2011-2014 Mustang GT / Boss 302, to open up the flex fuel table that the F150 has had from the factory.

Edit: How it was explained to me is, when the pcm detects the STFT's out of a desired range, it when it activates the learn mode due to a tank fill up, and disables LTFT's, since it needs to switch to a new fuel type, stoich, and timing set. Roughly 5 minutes of idling or driving with the widebands detecting the out of range AFR, and the knock sensors doing their thing (in this case adding timining) up to the desired point is how the car switches fuels.

[ERR0RMACR0]

The F150 and Mustang GT are setup the same way, same engine, same widebands, knock sensors, fuel level sensors, same engine etc. The F150's Copperhead and now Tri Cor PCM, had the flex fuel tables unlocked where the Mustang did not. It uses a combination of it's widebands and knock sensors to add and remove timing based on the detected variance of stoich to determine ethanol content. Just a different way of doing the same thing with a stand alone ethanol sensor. It's not instant though, the fuel level activates a learn mode, that takes about 5 minutes. But this weekend, HPTuners added a new strategy for 2011-2014 Mustang GT / Boss 302, to open up the flex fuel table that the F150 has had from the factory.

Edit: How it was explained to me is, when the pcm detects the STFT's out of a desired range, it when it activates the learn mode due to a tank fill up, and disables LTFT's, since it needs to switch to a new fuel type, stoich, and timing set. Roughly 5 minutes of idling or driving with the widebands detecting the out of range AFR, and the knock sensors doing their thing (in this case adding timining) up to the desired point is how the car switches fuels.

Interesting. I can see that technique working fine for just a normal car, but I'd never rely on that to run flex fuel on my car...just my opinion. What would be best is both, the actual sensor being primary and the learn mode as a back up if the sensor fails or the mapping doesn't scale correctly.

*Edit for clarification: Normal car meaning one just driven normally and not pushed to the limit in a performance sense

[Seer]

Why wouldnt it? This is how it works OEM on the F150. The mapping scales the same way your GTR does it, just how it understands ethanol content is different. If your GTR lacked an ethanol sensor and your stoich was set for E10 gasoline, your STFT would show a rough value of 1.3, or 30% lean. Requiring 30% more fuel to get back to an STFT of 1.0 at idle and cruising. Hence it would need to switch the stoich value of 14.0 to 9.85, which then results in commanding 30% more fuel across the map. If you put E85 in while tuned for E10.

I mean, I can't say one method is better than the other, they both result in the same thing. You adding a different sensor introduces an extra point of of possible failure into the equation. Ford relying on their existing, widebands and knock sensors is just using the system for how it was intended. Here is another way to look at it, what if your ethanol sensor stops working? A fuse blows, a line is broken. Your pcm stops receiving an ethanol content value, and you default back to gasoline values? I don't like what would happen there.

It's just two different ways of achieving the same thing.

[ERR0RMACR0]

Why wouldnt it?

A sensor already knows the situation before hard acceleration even happens, what you described sounds like a learning phase--I wouldn't be willing to let my car go lean so it could learn how much fuel is needed and to make the adjustments.

[Seer]

A sensor already knows the situation before hard acceleration even happens, what you described sounds like a learning phase--I wouldn't be willing to let my car go lean so it could learn how much fuel is needed and to make the adjustments.

You failed to answer my question, what happens if your sensor malfunctions? The Copperhead/Tri Cor PCM ford vehicles do not let themselves go lean. They stay in closed loop even at wide open and use their widebands as a feedback system to determine fueling. I believe while a ford flex fuel vehicle is in learning mode its also running in a reduced timing mode as well, so you are not capable of blowing up your car. You'll just have poor performance until the learn cycle is complete. If this were the case we would hear about tons of F150 5.0 vehicles blowing up.

[ERR0RMACR0]

You failed to answer my question, what happens if your sensor malfunctions?

I quoted the question that I was answering. I didn't answer the other questions because I felt it would derail the thread to discuss the specifics of my tuning setup. To keep it brief, there are fail safes built into my car to ensure no catastrophic failures occur--it involves other sensors, as well as feedback from the ECU to determine if the car should cut boost and pull timing. In fact, it's similar to what you describe, but instead of trying to set up a tune based on it, it simply treats those conditions as a failure.

To each their own. I don't like the idea of using poor conditions as a trigger to begin adjustments--I prefer that it's set up correctly in the first place so that no poor conditions unnecessarily have to occur.