coyote turbo tuning questions

**Seer** · 03-07-2015, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by ERR0RMACR0

I quoted the question that I was answering. I didn't answer the other questions because I felt it would derail the thread to discuss the specifics of my tuning setup. To keep it brief, there are fail safes built into my car to ensure no catastrophic failures occur--it involves other sensors, as well as feedback from the ECU to determine if the car should cut boost and pull timing. In fact, it's similar to what you describe, but instead of trying to set up a tune based on it, it simply treats those conditions as a failure.

To each their own. I don't like the idea of using poor conditions as a trigger to begin adjustments--I prefer that it's set up correctly in the first place so that no poor conditions unnecessarily have to occur.

It's not using poor conditions, the car runs factory wide bands in closed loop, it follows a commanded lambse. A few detected trims to trigger a learn mode inside of fractions of a second is nothing to worry about, using this setup on one of the best selling vehicles in the country if not the world (F150), I'd say it's well thought out, and works perfectly. I'm sure your setup does have fail safes, it would not be a great idea to just rely on an external sensor.

If a wideband goes out on a Ford vehicle it goes into limp mode, and the ETC will not open all of the way, nor can the car hurt itself or go wide open. You don't have to like the setup, nor am I making an argument that one way works better than the other. I do disagree with you saying Ford's method isn't optimal or ideal, it's been proven to work quite as well as an external sensor does.

Many vehicles have fail safes built into them too btw. A lot of cars will throw a CEL or a too rich or lean condition, which is usually around 15% (I can't speak for all cars), there are also IAT vs timing tables, fuel enrichment etc. I'm not telling you something you do not already know. I personally cannot think of a scenario where I need my car to go WOT the second I finish switching from E10 to E85 right out of the gas station parking lot where I cannot let it idle for more than a few minutes while it learns.

In the end, this is a big win for Coyote Mustang owners as they no longer need to drain their tanks and switch tunes.

Worst case scenario in the Ford setup is this, the car didnt finish it's learn cycle, knock sensor picks up activity, and yanks timing. Car runs slow until it learns a few minutes later. End result, alcohol tune for you, and more HP. I mean unless you need to cut a 1.4 60' from the gas pump, this method works fine.

**ERR0RMACR0** · 03-07-2015, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

It's not using poor conditions, the car runs factory wide bands in closed loop, it follows a commanded lambse. A few detected trims to trigger a learn mode inside of fractions of a second is nothing to worry about, using this setup on one of the best selling vehicles in the country if not the world (F150), I'd say it's well thought out, and works perfectly. I'm sure your setup does have fail safes, it would not be a great idea to just rely on an external sensor.

If a wideband goes out on a Ford vehicle it goes into limp mode, and the ETC will not open all of the way, nor can the car hurt itself or go wide open. You don't have to like the setup, nor am I making an argument that one way works better than the other. I do disagree with you saying Ford's method isn't optimal or ideal, it's been proven to work quite as well as an external sensor does.

Many vehicles have fail safes built into them too btw. A lot of cars will throw a CEL or a too rich or lean condition, which is usually around 15% (I can't speak for all cars), there are also IAT vs timing tables, fuel enrichment etc. I'm not telling you something you do not already know. I personally cannot think of a scenario where I need my car to go WOT the second I finish switching from E10 to E85 right out of the gas station parking lot where I cannot let it idle for more than a few minutes while it learns.

In the end, this is a big win for Coyote Mustang owners as they no longer need to drain their tanks and switch tunes.

Worst case scenario in the Ford setup is this, the car didnt finish it's learn cycle, knock sensor picks up activity, and yanks timing. Car runs slow until it learns a few minutes later. End result, alcohol tune for you, and more HP. I mean unless you need to cut a 1.4 60' from the gas pump, this method works fine.

I don't want to derail the thread, but the car cannot lack a sensor and also at the same time not use poor conditions to adjust the tune. It cannot be the best of both worlds. Either the car knows up front what the conditions are by use of a sensor, or it uses the results to understand how the conditions have changed. It isn't magic--the way the car would know that it needs to add fuel is by observing that there is a deficiency. Because you personally are willing to let a few events happen and they are not dangerous, in your opinion, doesn't mean that everyone will be comfortable with them. You keep referring to the F150 and saying if what I say is true, F150s would be popping left and right, but it's apples and oranges: a factory tuned car is not running optimally for performance, so there is more wiggle room for error. You've said it yourself, the stock Mustang GT tune sucks. The reason is because it's safe, so allowing some learning on a tune that is inherently safe is worlds different than trying that luck with a car that has been optimized to make power.

People also run boosted pumps, injector duty cycles in the 90s, etc. I don't agree with any of that either. People do it everyday, I was just commenting that I personally wouldn't risk it. I probably shouldn't have commented in the first place because I don't have a Coyote, I was just curious as to how it did it without a sensor. Sorry to the OP for the derail, I'm exiting the thread now.

J, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

**Seer** · 03-07-2015, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by ERR0RMACR0

I don't want to derail the thread, but the car cannot lack a sensor and also at the same time not use poor conditions to adjust the tune. It cannot be the best of both worlds. Either the car knows up front what the conditions are by use of a sensor, or it uses the results to understand how the conditions have changed. It isn't magic--the way the car would know that it needs to add fuel is by observing that there is a deficiency. Because you personally are willing to let a few events happen and they are not dangerous, in your opinion, doesn't mean that everyone will be comfortable with them. You keep referring to the F150 and saying if what I say is true, F150s would be popping left and right, but it's apples and oranges: a factory tuned car is not running optimally for performance, so there is more wiggle room for error. You've said it yourself, the stock Mustang GT tune sucks. The reason is because it's safe, so allowing some learning on a tune that is inherently safe is worlds different than trying that luck with a car that has been optimized to make power.

People also run boosted pumps, injector duty cycles in the 90s, etc. I don't agree with any of that either. People do it everyday, I was just commenting that I personally wouldn't risk it. I probably shouldn't have commented in the first place because I don't have a Coyote, I was just curious as to how it did it without a sensor. Sorry to the OP for the derail, I'm exiting the thread now.

J, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Then you'll have to agree to disagree with Ford engineers who do this for a living as well many other OEM pcm calibration engineers as many manufacturers are switching to this setup. But it is your opinion.

Like your sensor, ethanol content is detected at fill up, now you can say it is detecting in real time but is it really? Are you adding ethanol to the car while you're driving? You are introducing a change in fuel capacity which is what is triggering the sensor. From your replies I don't think you understand how a closed loop setup works, if you do I apologize in advance (or you did not know the Coyote cars, and all Ford's after 2011 for that matter, run this system), but for those who do not, here we go and this is not derailing this thread, this is coyote tuning logic.

A closed loop system uses it's MAF to measure incoming airflow, and to tell the PCM how much fuel is required to maintain it's commanded ratio for the given event. The Wideband O2 sensors detect variance in the mixture and send a correction back to the pcm to ensure the loop is constant and meets a commanded ratio. If no variance is detected then no correction is required. Essentially, the car should NEVER go out of it's commanded value because of how the widebands, knock sensors, and MAF work together in unison.

Driving with ethanol in the tank while in learn mode has zero danger to the vehicle with this closed loop system. The vehicle detects the ethanol, it makes the required changes to get back into it's commanded ratio and desired fuel trim. The knock sensors pull timing during the learn mode if it detects an event, and you have a 100% safe vehicle. And it's not that I personally am comfortable letting a few events happen, it's that I understand how a closed loop system works, and how it protects an engine, and so does Ford, or else they would not use a system like this on one of the largest selling vehicles. A car that is optimized to make power vs. a stock tuned vehicle is irrelevant. If the optimized car is tuned properly, there is still a 0% chance of failure during it's few minute learning mode process.

Coyotes blow up because of the following reasons:
1. Tuners command them to run too lean at WOT
2. Tuners command too much timing globally
3. Tuners turn off, or de-scensitize the knock sensors

As far as boost a pumps? Eh, they're not ideal, but they're proven to work. Actually Ford, has built the Boost a pump logic into their Shelby GT500 cars. When the vehicle goes wide open, it sends more voltage to the pumps for a period of time, upping their production rate. I believe the range is 14-18v. In closing, having an ethanol sensor, or running a setup like how Ford does is not safer, or more dangerous in either direction. They are truly just two different ways of accomplishing the same thing. There is a reason why OEM's are ditching ethanol sensors and running setups like this now for flex fuel, with vehicles that run widebands factory. The ethanol sensor is purely just not needed.

**phillysrt4** · 03-07-2015, 09:33 PM

Thank you both for contributing to this discussion. I don't consider this a "derail" of the thread because I learned something about coyote tuning (and philosophical ideas about tuning in general) from reading your exchange. I appreciate you both providing input into this.

All I can say is the more I read about this the more I want to learn.

**Seer** · 04-13-2015, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by LynnKing

Turing this car himself is not as easy as you are thinking, but if you really want to try by yourself so dig into and find out what table it belongs to. Then you can try Pro Racer Package it will be helpful for you.

I feel hptuners is much more intuitive and easier to work with. That and the company actually cares about support. I do agree with you though, coyote tuning is some of the most advanced OEM tuning out there, most guys who started with EEC-V, then moved on to Spanish Oak, threw in the towel with the Copperhead and Tri Core PCM's. This isn't a LS motor that has a lower skill curve to tune. I'm not saying you can't learn it, I am saying it will take you years to figure it out.

**gmkillr** · 04-13-2015, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

I feel hptuners is much more intuitive and easier to work with. That and the company actually cares about support. I do agree with you though, coyote tuning is some of the most advanced OEM tuning out there, most guys who started with EEC-V, then moved on to Spanish Oak, threw in the towel with the Copperhead and Tri Core PCM's. This isn't a LS motor that has a lower skill curve to tune. I'm not saying you can't learn it, I am saying it will take you years to figure it out.

Is that why you paid someone to tune yours for you?

**Seer** · 04-13-2015, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by gmkillr

Is that why you paid someone to tune yours for you?

exact reason why, I have a great understanding of coyote tuning concepts, but not a mastery of it to a level I'd feel comfortable undertaking it, but this still doesn't change the fact that I've forgotten more about tuning than you ever knew.

I mean you are the genius who originally thought he could run a heads/cam Z06 on a stock fuel system and injectors and try to hit a magical 600hp. Then you thought it was in the tune, and ran to another tuner and made less. You crack me up. Quit chasing me around stalker.

**gmkillr** · 04-13-2015, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

exact reason why, but this still doesn't change the fact that I've forgotten more about tuning than you ever knew

Absolutely, you are the man! Dont forget that im jealous of you! Theres no way I could possibly know as much about tuning as a Doctor such as yourself!

rubindiploma.jpg

**Seer** · 04-13-2015, 08:44 PM

You most certainly are. You come on here and claim I have issues, look in a mirror. I'm surprised you can dress yourself in the morning. BTW, my middle initial is W. You should tell that to whoever created that image that you so desperately cling to thinking it bothers me. Idiot.

**gmkillr** · 04-13-2015, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

You most certainly are. You come on here and claim I have issues, look in a mirror. I'm surprised you can dress yourself in the morning. BTW, my middle initial is W. You should tell that to whoever created that image that you so desperately cling to thinking it bothers me. Idiot.

LMAO.....you never cease to make me laugh!

I asked you 3 times before and you refused to answer so i'll ask again:

Please tell me what am I jealous of you about?

Next question......Are you seriously denying that you made that "fake" degree when you were trying to scam people with the whole wax thing?

Seriously man, do you think everybody on here doesn't know your story? LOL Dude you've been exposed beyond a shadow of a doubt numerous times. Everyone on here knows your deal man, give it up already!

**Seer** · 04-13-2015, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by gmkillr

LMAO.....you never cease to make me laugh!

I asked you 3 times before and you refused to answer so i'll ask again:

Please tell me what am I jealous of you about?

Next question......Are you seriously denying that you made that "fake" degree when you were trying to scam people with the whole wax thing?

Seriously man, do you think everybody on here doesn't know your story? LOL Dude you've been exposed beyond a shadow of a doubt numerous times. Everyone on here knows your deal man, give it up already!

I don't owe you an answer, perhaps you should bring this topic up with your therapist this week for discussion. You seem to be the only obsessed asshole who likes to bring up things you had zero involvement with. Were you directly involved? I'm certain little girls gossip less than you do. Grow a pair of balls man, be a man and stop with the proliferation of gossip. Even when I was your friend it was nothing but talking about other people. If I didn't actually know you, I would've thought you were a young kid by the way you post.

Run your car not your mouth, because the way you drive, you could sure use the practice. Your mouth, not so much.

**Dan B.** · 04-13-2015, 09:06 PM

Love me an internet bitch slap fest.

**gmkillr** · 04-13-2015, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

I don't owe you an answer, perhaps you should bring this topic up with your therapist this week for discussion. You seem to be the only obsessed asshole who likes to bring up things you had zero involvement with. Were you directly involved? I'm certain little girls gossip less than you do. Grow a pair of balls man, be a man and stop with the proliferation of gossip. Even when I was your friend it was nothing but talking about other people. If I didn't actually know you, I would've thought you were a young kid by the way you post.

Run your car not your mouth, because the way you drive, you could sure use the practice. Your mouth, not so much.

Dude i'll race your little Mustang anytime you want. If you had the balls to show up to the track rental id race you heads up for $100 but we both know you wont show.

Theres a very good reason why you refuse to answer that question after being asked atleast 4 times now.......you have NOTHING to be jealous of....literally nothing.........Dude face it you have literally FAILED at life in pretty much every single aspect.

**Seer** · 04-13-2015, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by gmkillr

Dude i'll race your little Mustang anytime you want. If you had the balls to show up to the track rental id race you heads up for $100 but we both know you wont show.

Theres a very good reason why you refuse to answer that question after being asked atleast 4 times now.......you have NOTHING to be jealous of....literally nothing.........Dude face it you have literally FAILED at life in pretty much every single aspect.

I guess you don't read well either. Or maybe, I'm out of town that weekend. Maybe I just don't want to sit around and hear your flap your jaw all day at how great you are, and how fast your car is, as it limps out of the water box.

I'm glad to see you're keeping tabs on me, on how "I've failed at life". I am unsure how "I've failed at life" though. Where I most certainly could use some improvements as I'm not perfect, I would say I'm far from a failure. Aren't you some sort of christian? You sound pretty hypocritical to me, but I'm no expert in that church stuff.

Tell me, do you define who succeeds at life and who fails, like you do with your definition of street cars and call outs? If so, you may want to recheck those definitions too. I'm curious about your massive life successes and who placed you in charge as some sort of spiritual or psychological guru that gives you the ability to say who has failed and who hasn't. Is it something you learn at meter reading school? Do you gain this ability when you purchase a bright yellow z06? Do you gain spiritual enlightenment when you break an axle in the waterbox for the 13th time in a season? Or does it happen when you dump thousands into a z06 and keep the fuel setup stock? Oh wait, I know! It happens when you act like a man child and splash rumors and stories you only heard about someone else on the internet who used to be your friend, and who did nothing to you. That's when it happened. We should light you on fire and call you Ghandi.

I mean, it's getting to a point when you type a message to me, it narrates in my head with you sounding like you have down syndrome in a man child voice stating the following sentence. "My name is Robby, I race yellow car... YELLOW CAR!!! It's fast, go VROOM VROOM! I define street car, street car, not race car! Your life bad, mine gud!"

**phillysrt4** · 04-14-2015, 05:16 PM

f*** it... im buying a dodge.

**Cam99** · 04-14-2015, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by phillysrt4

f*** it... im buying a dodge.

LOL, hell yeah

**gmkillr** · 04-14-2015, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

You most certainly are. You come on here and claim I have issues, look in a mirror. I'm surprised you can dress yourself in the morning. BTW, my middle initial is W. You should tell that to whoever created that image that you so desperately cling to thinking it bothers me. Idiot.

Would you care to retract your statement?

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showpos...4&postcount=14

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211423

http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showpos...3&postcount=10

Dude.......you seriously suck at life............LMAO

You've failed horribly and continue to do so!

Why do you continue to lie?

Please stop claiming that we we're friends.......I don't want people getting the wrong idea about me! We were more like acquaintances that hung out a few times and texted about cars back and forth. I heard all of the horror stories about you, gave you the benefit of the doubt and with my own limited personal experiences you confirmed everything that everyone warned me about. You continue to confirm your horrific legacy constantly! You are a pathological liar and literally NOTHING out of your mouth can be believed or trusted. People who you "think" are your friends say the same things I do about you but there not as willing to speak out in public on it as they are just not as confrontational as I am. In the last 24 hours I got 6 Pm's and 4 different text messages from various people on here in FULL support of exposing you for what you truly are!