2.3 Turbo Setup

[TheGreatWhite]

ok i got a few questions for you 2.3 guys out there. my buddy is swapping in a 2.3 turbo in his 87 notch. the motor is out of an 88 mustang and the turbo is off of an 88 turbocoupe. he is looking to do a little bit of work to the engine.nothin major.ie: mild cam, exhaust,throttle body,little bit of head work.stuff like that. we were just wonderin how much boost he would be capable of on the stock pistons/connecting rods..also are the internals the same in the 2.3 as the svo's? the only place to buy this stuff from also that we could find is racer walsh..overpriced IMO. he just doesn't want to tear the entire engine apart if he doesn't have to. just lookin for some info he plans to run more boost(i guess as much as possible) on stock internals or whatever. just seein what everybody would recommend for a good setup
Thanks!

[lib88stang]

Im not to sure your buddy is going to want to use the NA motor and turbo it. He may be better off finding a turbo motor out of a TC or merkur

[Martin0660]

ok i got a few questions for you 2.3 guys out there. my buddy is swapping in a 2.3 turbo in his 87 notch. the motor is out of an 88 mustang and the turbo is off of an 88 turbocoupe.

This is probably going to be a disasater. The NA engines are cast pistons, while the turbo engines are forged. The mass air computer, MAF, and high impendance injectors from the NA 2.3 arent going to support even 10# of boost. Look at it this way, the stock engine was 88 hp, the turbo engines were 150-165 hp with 30# injectors, and 190-225 hp with 35# injectors. All of these depend on year / configuration, but all of them run out of injector pretty quick when you turn them up. There are work arounds, but only because of low impedance injectors.

he is looking to do a little bit of work to the engine.nothin major.ie: mild cam, exhaust,throttle body,little bit of head work.stuff like that. we were just wonderin how much boost he would be capable of on the stock pistons/connecting rods..also are the internals the same in the 2.3 as the svo's? .

See above, there are some that have got away with 10#'s with an IHI (88 TC turbo) for while. Usually they get greedy and melt it down. Its just so much better to do a proper turbo swap from a NA engine to a turbo engine and controls, and have a heck of a good time :D The 87/88 TC auto was limited to 10#'s of boost, rated at 150 HP, and had all of the injectors, forged pistons, etc as the other turbo cars.

the only place to buy this stuff from also that we could find is racer walsh..overpriced IMO. he just doesn't want to tear the entire engine apart if he doesn't have to. just lookin for some info he plans to run more boost(i guess as much as possible) on stock internals or whatever. just seein what everybody would recommend for a good setup
Thanks!

First of all, thats what you have to understand about the 2.3 turbo. Its a "build it yourself" kinda thing. You dont need to buy a lot, and if you are going to, you are going to pay. Its a very small nitch, and most of us are real cheap asses. Hit up www.turboford.net for the best info possible on these 2.3's but be prepared to be smacked for asking newbie questions with out a search.

If you buddy is serious about a build (and doing it right), I would be more than happy to talk to him about his options, and set him up a plan to get where he needs. MAP and I have been into these things a long time, and have probably seen most of it ;)

Bob Myers

[map351]

With a N/A engine the cast pistons won't live long 5 lb boost if your lucky. He's going in the wrong direction! Find a 87/88 TC use the engine & ECC he has the harness in the car just needs repined and add the ACT sensor and VAM.

As for mods you can make over 300Hp ( Bob Myers) with the stock combo but not with a IHI, you'll need a T-3 or T-4 or Holset. Some have made over 400Hp with the stock rods, 450ish have been proven but that's on the edge. Crower sportsman rods your good over 600Hp.

[TheGreatWhite]

Wow thanks alot guys im glad i found that out ahead of time! ill relay that to him and im sure Bob ill be in touch with you and let you know what he wants to do once i tell him this..Thanks again everybody

[Martin0660]

Np problem, let me know if I can help. Tell him to head out to the track someday I'm there and see it all in action :D

Bob Myers

[TheGreatWhite]

k so i talked to my buddy and heres what we came up with. he is just gonna possibly take a loss but maybe not. first off the 2.3 he has we are going to do a complete rebuild on it so it will actually be able to handle high horsepower/boost(hopefully bob can point us in the right direction there ). then i just have to find out if a T3 or T4 will bolt up to the flange on his manifold for the IHI. if so he is gonna ditch the IHI and find a T3 or T4. if not we will take the loss and buy the right stuff

[map351]

The IHI has the same 4 bolt flange as the T-3/T-4. The N/A block doesn't have a turbo oil drain back, And it's claimed the turbo block is a high nodular iron block. It would be cheaper to find a early turbo Cp and you have every thing you need cheap!

As far as rebuilding goes (handle high horsepower/boost) your better off spending that money on a stand alone ECU! There a few 400Hp+ 200,000 short block making BIG power. How fast you want to go?

[One Sweet Day]

tell your buddy to sign up! sounds like he could really benefit from scs!

[sweeney1030]

I tried the same thing . I had a 87 turbo coupe and spun the rod bearings, so to save money I replaced the bottom end(entire short block) with a 87 mustang non turbo block that only had 24k on it, for the first 50 miles I was overwhelmed with the idea of how I just saved so much money - problem was I just wasted a bunch of time. after the warm up trip down rt22 the temp of the turbo was more than the itty bitty block could handle, the boost went to 13 lbs leaving a light and the number 2 rod literally looked for the path of least resistance- it left the block through the head(the turbo head) .so I talked to a bunch of people who all said WHAT ,NO YOU DID'NT DUDE THAT WON'T WORK, well I wish I talked to them beforhand. Tell him DO NOT DO IT . later and happy motoring

[TheGreatWhite]

so then its not necessarily the internals but the block is also different?

[Martin0660]

You can add good rods and low compression forged pistons to the NA block. The boss should be on the side for the oil drain back, it would need drilled and tapped 1/2" NPT. He will the need a turbo head, at least the valves, and you have to watch what chamber he has on the head. Turbo heads are an open d shaped chamber, some of the NA stuff has a heart shape (too much compression). So now, $4-600 for pistons and rings, $300.00 for a set of rods, and you still need a head, and drill and tap a block that might not be turbo quality. He is going to need injectors, a turbo ECM, vane meter, wiring can be converted (thats an easy car) See why we recomend finding a donor car?

Also, I know everyone wants to go fast, I do too. but.... With this turbo stuff, its a REALLY good idea to do a swap stockish, get it running right, then start the upgrades on it a step at a time.

I am only running junkyard type engines in my stuff, and ran 12.30's at nearly 113 mph (3200 # car with me in it), drive it every day, get 27 mpg, and its basically reliable. I did just melt a piston, but I know what I did, and i'm REALLY pushing stock stuff hard. If I break something, I'm out very little money, can find parts reasonable, and get running again. I'm not trying to talk him out of a full on build, but just trying to show you CAN do this pretty cheap and it be real fun with the donor car / engine route.

I still think if he wants a low 13, high 12 second driver with a Mustang, the donor route is the way to go. Buy that Merkur Ed knows about, and be running for less than a grand ;)

Bob Myers

[sweeney1030]

everything is different the entire rotating assembly is not meant to put up with high rev's , the block is not the same temperment casting wise -as far as heat resistanse . the turbo block is reliefed in areas and cast with more gerth around mains, and passages the non turbo block is not so presure will blow it apart . think of it like this elmers glue VS welding. it is like supercharging a geo. save yourself the head aches or go ahead and try it but remember I warned you

[Martin0660]

Beleive me, I support starting with a turbo engine is the better route, but, there isnt a lot of difference in the turbo blocks. All of them were cast on the same line, there is rumor that the alloy had more nickle for the turbo blocks, others beleive that they simply weighed the blocks and tapped the heavier ones for turbo service. I do know, before Ford discontinued them, the service blocks had the same part number.

The cranks are the same, we know of a ton of guys running on NA cranks, even the 2.5 cranks from the ranger. The rods are better, and of course the forged pistons and special ring package.

Bob Myers

[TheGreatWhite]

ok that does sound like in his ballpark low 13 high 12 second car..so i guess he shouldn't use that N/A 2.3 motor at all?or the turbo that hes got. once i told him that his block might not hold up either he was kinda upset i just told him i would make sure before he goes out lookin for another engine. ill talk to him about the merkur

[Martin0660]

I would not use his stock motor myself.

This swap is really straightforward, but you need things ;) The absolute simplist way to get it done is to get a turbo donor, use the complete engine, including injecotrs, etc, add the turbo EEC, and re-wire the harness a little to make it work, he wil lstill need to add a fuel pump upgrade, and an intercooler if he likes. That gets it up and running for short money if he finds a fair deal on a donor. i've seen this stuff go from %50.00 to $1000.00 for a complete car.

There is that Merkut Ed mentioned, there is a turbo coupe for sale on this forum, complete, plus i think it has an upgraded 8,8 with disk brakes, and could be a source for a front brake upgrade. Hell my 1st TC was bought as a donor, I liked it so much I kept the car :D There is another Automatic 87/88?? TC for sale here for under a grand, and they are out there other places too.

Tell your buddy to get in touch with me, we can talk details ;)

Bob Myers

[TheGreatWhite]

ok thanks..we actually found a donor turbo coupe around us for 500$ he is gonna check it out.. im sorry you gotta bear with me but if he gets that turbocoupe the stock internals would be good for around 300 hp. in addition to getting a t3 or t4?

[Martin0660]

I'm patient, I play with 4 cylinders after all :D What year turbo coupe? All of the 2.3 turbos are internally the same, so 300 HP is no problem. now you have to flow air and fuel the beast too.

87-88 TC - Good engine, "4 square intake", 35# injectors (brown tops), large vane meter, LA3, LA2, LB?? computers. Downside is the tiny IHI turbo.

83-86 TC - good engine, inline intake to 85, 85.5-86 4 square intake. small 30# green top injectors, small vane air meter. upside is a T3 turbo ;) there is a little exception in there some of the late 86's had brown top injectors too.

Take the 87/88 engine, electronics, injectors, add an adjustable FPR, good fuel pump, something nice for an intercooler, and a T3 turbo, 300 HP will happen at 21ish psi boost.

Here is the problem with the 2.3 stuff, it cant be tuned as conventional as other stuff. You cant do the maf / injector swap like the 5.0 stuff, and tuning is a real challenge with the stuff out there (EEC tuner and Tweecer) as they just arent supported by the manufacturers for the 2.3. Fortunately, I know a guy that is getting pretty good with the tuning ;)

So what happens, is with a stock type T3, 35# injectors, and large air meter, you run out of everything just above the 300 HP mark. I was miking in the 330 HP range with my TC but EVERYTHING was maxed out. Put that same combo in my Capri with a large front mount intercooler and I could put enough fuel pressure in it to fuel it. That's when I had to bite the bullet on a tuner.

Bob Myers

[TheGreatWhite]

ok so heres what i got so far..the turbocoupe he is looking at is an 87. it runs but the turbo is shot so only time will tell now he is gonna try and get his hands on it guess we will just have to see what happens