How to build a garage for a car guy… (Long post)

[DRRummel]

My social secretary and personal purchasing agent has authorized the installation of a garage.

Her requirements:

• It looks nice. - This is hard to nail down. She has shot down steel structures and she is not sure about a pole barn style. The most I get out of her is that it should have siding and shutters and flower boxes that match the house. She did not like my comment that the house doesn’t even have flower boxes.
• That I stop making the yard look like Sanford & Sons. - This mean that the metal shelving I removed from that basement, the old 302 and AOD, three 8.8 axles. 2 spare T-Top doors, extra hatch and two complete set of tires come out of the yard and get put into the garage.

My desires:

• I want a lift. – This requires twelve foot + ceilings.
• Three bays - There is never enough room in a garage and car ‘fluff’ when you strip them. Besides, the first time she has to scrape ice off her car, she is going to want to park in the garage, I see it coming.
• Maybe I should put a storage loft about the non lift bays. I have a lot of ‘spare’ parts.
• I don’t get home till late so I want to insulate the walls for sound and climate control. I am on a 1/3 of an acre and a sawzal on exhaust or hammering will wake the neighbors.
• I get a lot of work done between 9pm and 2 am. Lots of lighting.
• Some sort of climate control, ceiling fans to move the air, a window AC unit to cool off those 90+ degree days, and some sort of heater. I can use my propane bullet heater, but I would prefer something that doesn’t produce carbon monoxide.
• 220 V feed to the garage. I don’t know what amperage yet. My air compressor runs on 220 and the lift is 220, I have a 110V MIG welder, but I might have to upgrade that to a 220 unit. Most of these devices will not run at the same time.
• Run a network drop to the garage so I post help questions when I get in over my head. I have already picked up the fiber optic parts to set this up.
• There is never enough bench and shelf space. I want the garage to be deep enough that I can put a bench at the end of each bay with a car in the bay. 24-28 feet deep (outside dimension)?

Baltimore County requirements:

• The garage can’t be taller then 15 feet. – I know I can easily file for a variance. I can get 17 feet, but I understand that 20 feet requires a hearing where I have to justify my request. There is also some BS that I should not mention car work because the county actually has rules about not working on cars at home. I had a shop actually say that if the county was to see my floor jack and jack stands and tool box in my shed, there technically could write a citation. So telling the ‘judge’ I want a tall garage so I can install a lift to restore cars and build hot rods will not go over very well.
• The developed part of the back yard can not exceed 40% of the yard – Not a problem.
• The garage can not be bigger than the house – This is based on the foundation foot print. I was surprised to see that a three bay garage would be bigger than the house. I am checking on what can be done about this. A variance on this point would cause red flags at the zoning office.
• Set backs and easements. - I got that covered, three foot on the sides and ten foot on the back.

My father suggestions:
He used to be a builder is and has an opinion.

• 8 foot 2x4 walls are cheap and easy to build. Build a two foot block wall and put an 8 foot 2x4 wall on top of that. - That is only 10 feet…not 12…
• The garage should only be 24 foot deep. 24 foot roof trusses are plentiful and cheap. Bigger trusses cost more per foot.
• Use a ‘scissor’ trusses above the lift. The 10 foot wall and open truss should let me get the car in the air, but not my XTerra or his van. He is adamant that a four foot block wall and a 8 foot would not look right and make the house un-sellable.

Questions:
If I want to put a bench at the end of each bay, how deep should the bay be?

Should the storage loft have permanent stairs or a ladder or pull down stairs. (Ease of use vs. space for the stairs). If permanent stairs, should they be on a side wall of between bays?

I was thinking of installing two single garage doors. Should I install the 8 foot or the 11 foot doors?
Has anybody used Greg Smith Equipment for a lift before? If someone is familiar with lifts, can they explain the difference between the Master Series XL-9, OH8000 and the Atlas NINE unit? They look the same to me.(http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Vehicle_2_Post_Lifts_s/37.htm)

What else should I consider in the design?

[yeahloh95]

Mine Is 24 Foot Deep And I Wish It Was 28 There Is Just Not Enough Room In Front Of The Cars . I Agree Go Tall Enough For A Lift .

[J-rod]

im sure you can do it yourself or have a way, but if you need any cad prints drawn or printed, let me know. i do work on the side for that.

[Viper_ed]

Mine Is 24 Foot Deep And I Wish It Was 28 There Is Just Not Enough Room In Front Of The Cars . I Agree Go Tall Enough For A Lift .

28' is perfect depth to put a bench in front of the car. 12' high ceiling will be ideal if you plan on doing a lift. At my Dad's we only did the section of the ceiling where the lift is 12' and made the rest 4'. Works perfect and have had a vehicle as big as my 04 Durango on there and still had pleanty of clearance to the ceiling with the lift all the way up.

[DRRummel]

im sure you can do it yourself or have a way, but if you need any cad prints drawn or printed, let me know. i do work on the side for that.

I will be in touch. I might need your help.

[J-rod]

I will be in touch. I might need your help.

anytime....its a little side job i do when i can

[DRRummel]

Thanks for your help. After listening to your suggestions and playing with the number I have come up with these decisions so far.

• I am going to build the garage 28 feet deep. Most others are saying 28 feet works for them or that 24 feet is not quite enough.
• Seems the biggest I can go is about 28 x 32 (896 sq feet) and honestly tell zoning that the garage is smaller then the house. (This is the usual the question they ask. I had them ONCE ask if the garage size was near the house size.)
• Given that the size is now set at 28 x 32, it looks like the final configuration will be 2 bays with a work space on the left side and additional benches across the back of the bays.
• I expect that the far right bay will have the lift, for ‘additional car storage’.
• Seems that 60 amp 220 should be enough power. I think the house has a 200 amp service it that matters.
• The lift requires 11’ 10” and 220 single phase power @ 16 Amps and 4 inch 3000 PSI concrete (6 bag mix I have been told).
• While pulling power to the garage, pull:
  • 220 power
  • Telephone
  • Coax (RG6) for TV :)
  • Fiber optic for computer network drop.

I am leaning towards a two or three foot knee wall (block wall) with 10 foot 2x4 or 2x6 walls. While a pole barn or steel building would be cheaper, the steel building will not have the ascetics to make my wife happy and my father is against the pole barn because of trying to insulate and run electrical though it concerns him. A response on Corral posted a nice looking vinyl sided pole barn. If that passes the wifes taste, I wil push the issue with my father. I understand the cost difference between a pole barn and framed (stick build?) is significant.

Seems I can petition for a height variance for up to 20’ 6” without the county getting their panties in a bunch. Given that, a 12 (or 12’6”) foot wall and 4/12 pitch roof across 28 feet…
4/12 = x/28…
= 9’4” roof rise, …
for a total of 21’ 4” total height…
Still over 20’ 6”….
Maybe I will need to add 9-12 inches of ‘landscaping’ soil around the garage for ‘beautification’.

With this low pitched roof the rafter / truss storage area is out of the question. But since have 12 foot wall, one bay at 12 and a bay and half at 8 feet. How do convert the area from 8 feet to 12 feet above these other bays to a storage loft? 28 feet is long span with out support poles… OR should I make both bays with 12 feet ceiling in case I need a second lift in the future to store an addition car. I hear these things multiply like rabbits.

[J-rod]

planning for a double lift would be good unless you "need" storage. we did something similar with our cabin. it is 24x36 with a 12x18 loft. smae principal you could use with the 8' ceiling and use the loft area for storage and "lounge"

[DRRummel]

I can't see how the loft would have enough head room for a lounge. Can you shoot a couple of pictures of how it looks and how it is supported?
Thanks.

planning for a double lift would be good unless you "need" storage. we did something similar with our cabin. it is 24x36 with a 12x18 loft. smae principal you could use with the 8' ceiling and use the loft area for storage and "lounge"

[J-rod]

I can't see how the loft would have enough head room for a lounge. Can you shoot a couple of pictures of how it looks and how it is supported?
Thanks.

ummmm let me see if i can find any on cd. my laptop fried 2 years ago. and the cabin is 2 hours away from where i live.

edit - didnt see you were only going with a 4:12 pitch roof....we have a 1:1. with that low pitch a loft is almost worthless, besides some minimal storage.

[J-rod]

maybe go with both sides of a 12' wall and a lower pitch roof to appease the county? you will not have any overhead storage though

[DRRummel]

maybe go with both sides of a 12' wall and a lower pitch roof to appease the county? you will not have any overhead storage though

That is the game plan. But, with 12 walls and a 1 and 1/2 bays with 8 ceilings, I should be able to use the space above that 1 1/2 bays somehow.

[J-rod]

That is the game plan. But, with 12 walls and a 1 and 1/2 bays with 8 ceilings, I should be able to use the space above that 1 1/2 bays somehow.

hell if nothing else you can use the same concept as a drop ceiling and then use some permanen steps or some pull downs, as you mentioned above....all in what works best for you. going with 28 deep permanent steps over in the 1/2 bay would be ideal imo

[DRRummel]

I am still looking into building a garage.
The contractor I am leaning towards does a great and inexpensive job, but does not do the electric. He will do everything else, including the concrete. I am looking to do some of the electric work myself to off set the cost. Put I have some questions.

• When and how does the electric get run into the garage? I need to figure out how it routes around / though the concrete foundation. On my house the electric is trenched to the house, comes out of the ground and has a L fitting going into the house at the service entrance. Is it the same setup for the garage? Or since it is fused, does it come up in the wall?
• I am also thinking about running water and a natural gas run from the house (120 feet away). I would guess that natural gas needs to be in a different trench then the power feed for the garage. If so, how far apart do they need to be? Now, if I have two trenches to the garage, does it matter which trench the water feed goes in?
• Doesn’t the water feed need to be 36 inched below ground so that it doesn’t freeze?
• How is the water line feed into the garage? If the garage is kept above 40* do I need to be concerned with the pipes in the garage freezing?
• How does the gas line get run into the garage and terminated? The gas line will not be used until I can afford a heater or heat pump.

[Viper_ed]

Just have some PVC pipes put through the walls and floor so that you can run your lines throught them when you are ready.

[J-rod]

Just have some PVC pipes put through the walls and floor so that you can run your lines throught them when you are ready.

and yes on the water...but check local codes and verify 36" will get you below the freeze line.

[DRRummel]

and yes on the water...but check local codes and verify 36" will get you below the freeze line.

Jared...
If I want a LONG shelf to hold engines and tranys and stuff... Should I design for 20 or 30 PSF?
A 28 foot span, with say a 30 PSF load rating... What do I need,... 16" TGI? Can I go smaller, say 12" TGI? Thanks again for the help.

[DRRummel]

I meet with Baltimore County zoning office about six weeks ago. This is after I stopped by the zoning office five times to unofficially go over my paperwork. They set me up with a reviewer and we went over:
Petition for Administrative Variance – 3 copies
Affidavit in Support of Administrative Variance – 3 copies
Zoning Description of the Property – 3 copies
Ground Plat
(with 1”=1000’ vicinity map and all our neighbors listed) – 12 copies
Advertising/posting form
Pictures of the property and surrounding area.


The reviewer said that I had correctly completed all the needed paperwork and could proceed to file for the variance.

A sign was posted for two weeks and no one within 1000’ wanted to protest. So the county then sent my paperwork for review to:
Department of Assessments
Development Plans Review
Fire Department
State Highway Administration
County Road
Planning
Building Plan Review
Department of Environment

NOW THIS IS GREAT. No of the above agencies approved or denied my request, they just said that they foresee any problems with the request.

A week and a half after the sign in front of the house came down, I got a letter from the county saying that I could proceed with the garage, but should wait 30 days in case someone protest the decisions.

[2001GTTT]

Imo thats kinda ridiculous....you should be able to build anything you want on your own property....not have to go through the garage nazi's.

[DRRummel]

I know the dimensions 32’ wide by 28’ deep and 12’ high walls. I am thinking about two garage doors (9x8) on the front instead of one big door and a walk in door also. I THINK I would really like a loft off to the side where the bays are not. With 12’ wall I think not using that space for storage would be a waste. Getting my engine hoist, engine stands, blocks, heads, transmissions, doors, spare KMembers, etc. off the floor and out of the way would be great. But when I do the math, the loft becomes more of a long shelf.
If the bays are 14’…
32’ – (8” block walls x2) = 30.75’
30.75’ – (14’ bay x2) = 2.75
That leaves 2.75 feet for a work area on the side.

Should I short one of the bays and make it 13’?
Which bay gets the lift?
Which bay gets shorted?
How big should a bay (with a lift) be?
How wide is an 87 Fox with the doors open?

I need to design and decide quickly so I can be in the garage before the end of summer. I am open to suggestions.

Below is a link to my rough layout in PDF...
http://www.drrummel.com/Garage/layout.pdf