upper control arms

[JETHRO]

going with different upper control arms. double adjustable with spherical rod ends on both ends. anyone have any sxperience with this. if it matters i already have the global west lowers with the sherical ends on the front and the delrin on the back. they say these control arms eliminate the need for a panhard rod. i have found them to be very effective. im thinking that the new uppers will complement the lowers.

[Rodeheaver's]

going with different upper control arms. double adjustable with spherical rod ends on both ends. anyone have any sxperience with this. if it matters i already have the global west lowers with the sherical ends on the front and the delrin on the back. they say these control arms eliminate the need for a panhard rod. i have found them to be very effective. im thinking that the new uppers will complement the lowers.

i have run doulbe adj uppers and i love em, i think for road racing you should deff have a panhard for side to side control of the rear...

[yeahloh95]

have you found any upper arms yet ?

[Mark Aubele]

Do not run any aftermarket uppers for rr/autox. You are only making a bad situation worse. They are great for drag racing, but not if you want to turn in anger. And global west's arms do not eliminate the need for a panhard rod. Install a torque arm/ panhard, it will be the best thing you've ever done for your car.

[Killercanary]

Mark, can you help explain the benefits/drawbacks of a panhard versus a torque arm? I too run the same lowers as Steve does and I'm still running the stock uppers per GW's recommendation. My car will never be a corner carver as its just too damn heavy, but after trying my hand at SCCA SoloII last year in my wife's Mr2 spyder, I absolutely loved it. She told me I'm not allowed to race it anymore though so I'll be stuck with ym heavy pig if I want to do any SCCA racing.

[Mark Aubele]

Actually, use need to use a panhard bar (or other lateral locating device) when you use a torque arm, because you will remove the uppers, which locate the axle side to side. You can run a panhard bar without a torque arm, but I do not recommend it, unless you have to because of class rules (esp).

[JETHRO]

Dammit , I posted that thread awhile back and just the other day I put on the Edelbrocks on but left them the same length as stock. Urethane bushings on the axle. Figured Id try them out. What exactly will they cause the car to do? Mark if you run at Beaver run then I think I might have heard about you from my local guys here. If you were there when they went there wouldve been a gran sport corvette and a couple of camaros. The one blue one was driven by a really big guy.

[Mark Aubele]

Yeah, I'm at beaverun quite a bit. They won't do too much bad, the car will FEEL better, but at the limit, it will be more unpredictable. That's about all. If you aren't at 10/10th's, you may not even notice.

[yeahloh95]

i thought the angle of the uppers is what helped locate the axle side to side ? if they were not angled like this \ / then the rear could move . if they were like this [ ] it could . hence a triangulated 4 link set up.

[Mark Aubele]

Yes, that is true, the angle is what locates them side to side, but that is also the reason that the rear suspension binds, because all four arms are constantly fighting each other because they are all at different angles. That's why the bushings in the upper arms are so soft.

[snailmont5oh]

i thought the angle of the uppers is what helped locate the axle side to side ? if they were not angled like this \ / then the rear could move . if they were like this [ ] it could . hence a triangulated 4 link set up.

Steve's got Global West lowers, so his axle doesn't really move side to side. My guess is that it'll just bind up.

Never use a Gatling gun in the house.

Later,
Mike.

[yeahloh95]

not with spherical bearings in the uppers

[Mark Aubele]

Then it will bind even worse!

[yeahloh95]

What if they are only on the front ? or would putting them on both ends help any with bind ? or make it worse?

[snailmont5oh]

It'll get worse.

If the lower control arms were the only device locating the rear axle, then it would want to swing in one arc.

If the upper control arms were the only device locating the rear axle, then it would want to swing in a different arc.

With both arms hooked up, the bottom of the axle wants to swing in one arc, and the top wants to swing in a different arc. That's possible when going in a straight line. Not ideal, but possible. It just means that when the axle goes up, the pinion points at the ground.

Where the real problem is, and where things get a little more complicated, is when one wheel wants to go up, and the other either doesn't want to go up, or wants to go down (relative to the chassis). That's where the angles of all the rods come into play, and things start to bind up.

I tested my rear axle for articulation the other day with no springs, all control arms hooked up, global west lowers, stock uppers with rubber bushings on the car end and urethane on the axle end (because they were already installed). I could easily bench press the axle straight up, no problem. When I went to one wheel or the other, it would go up about 3 inches, and then just stop. I pushed as hard as I could, but I could only get it to go about another inch.

According to what I have read, in order to have a bind-free rear suspension, I will need to basically redesign the entire damn thing.

Fun stuff.

Never use a Gatling gun in the house.

Later,
Mike.

[yeahloh95]

I'LL have to go home and do the same thing to the yellow car and see what happens . i'm undecided as to what parts to throw at the svo and would like it handle as best as it can .maybe i'll just go the independant route?

[Mark Aubele]

Torque arm, panhard bar. If you need to stay in street mod (like me), Evolution Motorsports tri-link with a panhard bar or watts link, or a steeda 5-link. Any of these choices will make a huge difference. See avatar for how much corner exit traction I have with the tri-link (although that was also caused by having too soft of a rear spring at the time).

[snailmont5oh]

So, you went to the tri-link, huh? I've been thinking hard about doing that. I was hoping that I could use the global west lowers for side-to-side axle location, but even the global west tech support guy says that that's a bad idea. I'll probably end up with a EvM Watts link.

By the way, I remember watching you drift that Mustang around a big right hander at BeaveRun when we were there toward the end of the season before last. Good stuff.

In case you don't remember me, I usually drive the blue Fairmont at CPR autocrosses. We've talked. This year, I'll be running the black Camaro with the yellow stripes, because my new car won't be done in time, and my blue car is...well...done. It's time for a restoration on that one.

Later,
Mike.

[Mark Aubele]

Oh yeah, I remember you. We haven't made it up there for a while, I don't really auto-x too much anymore. I have the hillclimb/time trial bug BAD. Put a rollbar in that thing and come out! If you want to talk in depth about the three-link, PM your phone number and I'll give you a call.

[95riosnake]

Where are these time trial/hill climb events at? My car would probably fail the tech inspection miserably to compete, but I'd like to come out sometime and check it out.

Would a bolt-in Autopower 4 point roll bar be sufficient to be legal? I'm not really into welding a roll bar into my cobra, I like the removability aspect of the Autopower piece.